JXJohns, Faramir is the leader of the Rangers of Ithilien, and Gondor is in a state of war-readiness against Mordor. Strangers moving through Ithilien, especially strangers in the company of something like Gollum, moving toward Mordor, with the other side’s ultimate weapon, are major security risks, and if they are lying to him and taking the Ring to Sauron, he’s guilty of treason if he lets them go.
Yeah, there’s a lot of ifs in there, but Denethor isn’t exactly in his right mind, either…
Guin, Tom Bombadil began life as a Dutch doll that Tolkien’s children played with. The trilogy really began as a sequel to the Hobbit, which was a story Tolkien made up for those children. He threw Bombadil in as a personification of that doll for the enjoyment of the little ones.
It does feel shoehorned in, to me. But then again, there needed to be someone to rescue the Hobbits from the Barrow-wights and to show that there were parts of the Creation that the Ring had no power over. I don’t necessarily know that this section was needed, but there are a few positive points to his existence.
Besides, without Bombadil’s origins to argue over, the vast majority of online Tolkien fandom would be stuck with just Balrog wings to contest…
AFAIK, the Evenstar pendant was a PJ original idea – but it does have a canonical analog. The Elessar (“Elfstone”) is a gem on a pendant that was crafted by one of the elven jewelsmiths, and has a long tradition behind it; it’s given to Aragorn, along with his “throne name” Elessar, after it, by either Arwen or Galadriel when he decides to go ahead and claim his inheritance. (I presume that Viggo Mortensen wearing a big emerald on a necklace was just a trifle twee in today’s terms for the characterization – but the pendant, as a token of Arwen, works cinematically as a gemstone would not.)
(BTW, “one of the elven jewelsmiths” and “either Arwen or Galadriel” are not me being unsure – thery’re areas where Tolkien dithered between two divergent stories as part of his background, and never “canonized” one or the other.)
The Evenstar is in the book, although not called by that name IIRC. It’s given as a gift by Galadriel to Aragorn and is called the Elfstone, or “Ellesar” in Elvish, which is Aragorn’s prophecied name.
Maybe not Jar Jar, but quite probably Ned Flanders. (Hi-dilly-ho, hobbits!) (not an original thought, I know)
It helps (and George Lucas could’ve taken a few pointers) to spend 25 years writing your backstory before you get around to publishing. But speaking of Glorfindel, and keeping it straight: JRRT had a Glorfindel in the First Age in the Silmarillion (who died) and one in the Third Age in LOTR; and had to decide whether or not they were they same elf. He eventually came to the conclusion that they were.
I always just took it as a sort of Sesame-Street style “big, bigger, biggest” comparison on Gandalf’s part:
Aragorn, Legolas Gimli = dangerous
Gandalf = more dangerous
Sauron = most dangerous
Maybe Gandalf, having just been killed and all, found it necessary to point out to Gimli that the world is a dangerous place and death could come to him as well at any time.
As I understand it, half-elves (like Elrond) can choose to be men or elves. But how exactly? Is this something done at birth? Is the decision to become man or elf final?
How exactly does elf immortality work? The way I’ve come to understand it is that elves are only immortal if they make it to the Undying Lands. If they choose to stay in ME, they will die (like Arwen). Is this pretty much how it works?
There were so few half-elven that it was always a rather individual situation. Earendil had to decide after he’d delivered the Silmaril to the Blessed realm, and that’s when his wife Elwing had to decide too. It seems that Dior, Elwing’s father, was considered Eldar from the get-go, and never really offered a choice. Elrond and Elros got to decide after the War of Wrath, whether to cast their lot with men by going to Numenor, or not. Elrond’s kids were supposed to have made their choice by the time Elrond sailed for the West.
Elves are immortal. But their bodies can be destroyed. When that happens, no matter where they are (yes, elves got slain in the blessed realm, resulting in the Curse of the Noldor), their spirits go to Mandos, and hang out. Eventually they can get re-issued new bodies, and show up again in Valinor. (JRRT toyed with the idea of having elves be reborn as infants, but later opted to have them just show up as fully incarnated adults). The elves lives go on until the end of the world, and are contained within the world.
Men, on the other hand, stop briefly in Mandos after dying, then leave the circles of the world. The elves don’t know where men go, and neither do most of the Valar (Mandos and Manwë are possible exceptions).
Yes, the orcs reproduce via male/female. As JRRT left it before he died, orcs are corrupted elves. He was trying to rewrite this to alter their beginnings, as he was uncomfortable with having seemed to have made them a damned, unredeemable race.
But we know less about female orcs than we do about female dwarves.
Vandal, I’ll wait for Qadgop or someone else to give the scholarly overview, but basically the sons and daughters of Elrond are a special case: Elrond and Elros were the sons of Earendil (human) and Elwing (elf). They were given the choice by the Valar to be of human or elf kind, and thier children were given the same choice. Thier son Elros became human and the sire of the Kings of Numenor. The other son Elrond chose to be elvish and became immortal. Elrond’s sons and daughters would remain immortal so long as Elrond stayed in ME, but Elrond’s kids needed to depart ME at the same time as he did or become mortal.
Laughing Lagomorph et al: Could the reason that Gandalf says that Sauron is “more dangerous” than he a function of the fact that Sauron is not operating under any limitations from above? Gandalf is a servant of Iluvatar (under Manwe and Varda) and cannot use his power indiscriminately. Sauron’s boss has been cast into the Outer Darkness and so Sauron can do whatever he wants in pursuit of his own ends. Gandalf may not have been making a statement about his power being empirically less than Sauron’s, only that his is functionally less.
vandal: Half-elves do not choose between the fate of Elf or Man at birth, only later in life. I know Elrond, Elros, and Arwen decided as adults. I imagine the decision is permanent but I do not know what makes it so.
From the Encyclopedia of Arda, re: elven immortality-- “if they are slain or wither with grief, they are reincarnated in the Halls of Mandos in Valinor… Although, unlike Men, the Elves must remain in the world until its ending, they are not bound to Middle-earth. They may if they wish take the straight road, and sail into the Uttermost West, a road that is barred to mortals.”
I am pretty sure that, when they are reincarnated, they are reincarnated as the same self they were before they died.
squeegee: Nitpick, but Earendil and Elwing were both part Man; Earendil via his father Tuor and Elwing via grandfather Beren. This makes Elrond and Elros 3/8 Man, which I guess was rounded off to “Half-Elven.” Thus, Arwen and her brothers were only 3/16 Man, but that was enough to give them the choice of death or immortality. (I’m sure someone will correct me if I’ve gone wrong somewhere in there.)
Only Elrond and his brother Elros had the choice, being the product of a union between an elf and a man. Elros chose to be human, and is the great grandfather [its further up this thread] of Aragorn. Because he was of mixed blood, his decendents had an extended life span. Elrond chose to be an Elf, and his Children inherited that choice. However if they did not leave Middle Earth when Elrond did, they reverted to mortality. The decision of Elros was final, Elrond childrens decision, because of their immortality could be postponed till Elrond desired to leave Middle Earth.
When elves die in Middle Earth their spirit goes to the Halls of Waiting, the abode of the Vala Mandos. He could choose when to reintroduce them into the world. Thus the story of the two Glorfindels being the same person. The length of time to the reintroduction is at Mandos’ discretion
In the movies there arent, in the books its implied there are. Orcs reproduce like everyone else, they are corrupted elves.
Who exactly were the Nazgul? I know they were kings of men, but, I thought there was only one human kingdom when they were mortals (Numenor) so, where were they kings?
Who or what is the mouth of Sauron? I read in some website that the part was even casted for the movie; by the actor who played the gyrocopter pilot in Mad Max 3; Is he a human? An evil elf? Another Nazgul? What happened to him in the books?
Tijuana, while there was one major kingdom when the Nazgûl were created, there’s more to Middle-Earth than the corner we’re shown in the canon. There were always Southron and Easterling kingdoms, as well. And I believe it’s written that the Witch King was a Black Numenorean (the bad guys who badmouthed the Valar and brought the Akkalabêth down upon Numenor).
The Mouth of Sauron is kind of a cypher, but it’s believed that he was also a Black Numenorean, ancient and kept alive by Sauron’s power.
Just a tip for folks who have questions that can be easily answered by consulting a good, easily accessible source: check out the Encyclopedia of Arda, sort of an “Everything You Wanted to Know About Middle Earth and Beyond”:
This confirms that the Mouth of Sauron was a Black Numenorean. It also gives a lot of info about the Nazgul, and just about anything else you might want to know in a general way. There’s also plenty of esoteric stuff I couldn’t find on there, but this thread is full of people whose knowledge of Middle Earth is truly awesome. I want to thank you all right now for teaching me so much in this thread. I appreciate it.
The Nazgul were kings of various petty kingdoms of Men who were corrupted by Sauron with the Nine Rings. We know the background of only two – the Witch King, the chief of the Nazgul, was the King of Angmar (a couple hundred miles north of the Shire) who killed Arvedui, last king of Arthedain and Aregorn’s distant ancestor; Khamul, his second-in-command and the one in charge of Dol Guldur after Sauron took control over Mordor again, was a former King in Rhun, and is sometimes referred to in supplemental writings as the Black Easterling.
Apropos this question of human kingdoms, it might be worthwhile to do a thread on the political geography of Middle Earth.
At the end of LOTR, Sam is given the priviledge to sail yes? When does he sail? I assume its not with Frodo, Bilbo et al, but later. Does he sail with Legolas and Gimli? But wasn’t the ship on which Frodo et al sailed the last one leaving Middle Earth, or simply Arwen’s last chance so to speak? Help! I’m confused.
