Would same really want to leave his wife and kids? I reckon it was only bachelors who were allowed to sail.
Spoiler:
In the book, after a long and happy life in The Shire (raising his children, being Mayor), after the death of his wife, and many years after Frodo left, Sam goes to the Grey Havens and takes the same trip over the Sea that all Ring Bearers are granted. Legolas and Gimli leave Middle Earth long after that, in a ship Legolas built.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was getting confused, and not having the books to hand, couldn’t go and look things up.
I love this place. 
Poly, I’ve seen people say this about the Witch King before, and I may be misinterpreting it completely, but the Witch King was the Witch King after his wraithdom, not before. In other words, he was the King of Angmar as a Nazgûl. He was a king of something else (most likely Umbar or one of the Harads, given his status as a Black Numenorean) in life, long before.
I think you’re right, jayjay. The Witch King moved into Morgoth’s old stronghold in Angmar after the first fall of Sauron. If I’m reading the Appendix correctly, he caused trouble for over 600 years, including reopening Mordor and killing the last King of Gondor, before Sauron was strong enough to become the chief bad guy again.
Soup, Morgoth’s fortress was named Angband (“Iron Fortress”), not Angmar (“Iron Land”). Angband was destroyed along with Beleriand during the War of Wrath. Otherwise, you’re correct about the Witch-King’s general bad-assedness between Sauron’s defeat by the Last Alliance and his re-emergence prior to the War of the Ring.
Thanks jayjay. Guess I got my “Ang-s” mixed up.
Were Angband and Angmar located near each other? Both were north of the Shire and the lands associated with the War of the Rings, correct?
Angband was north of Beleriand, which in the time of the War of the Ring was basically the seabed west of Lindon. Just as a guesstimate, I’d say that Angband was roughly 1000-1500 miles west-northwest of where Angmar eventually would be. Angmar was (again, a guesstimate) about 200 miles northeast of the Shire, or at least it’s border was. Angmar actually spread across the northern Misty and Grey Mountains.
Okay, so far I think I get this:
So Sauron goes to the Elves and offers his expertise on forging these Rings, in the guise of teaching the Elves. The Elves want to preserve Middle Earth and keep things as they are for always-they don’t like change.
So, Sauron helps them make sixteen Rings of Power. All the while, he is plotting to take the Rings and use them for his own evil schemes.
THEN, the Elves go and make three Rings of their own-these are NOT touched by Sauron, so they aren’t evil and he doesn’t have as MUCH power over them, yet. However, not wanting to allow change goes against the natural order of things, so these Rings aren’t entirely good.
So then Sauron goes and creates the One Ring, the One that will control ALL of the other Rings-mainly the original sixteen, but also the three Elven Rings to a lesser extent.
So, he gives seven Rings to the Dwarves, and nine to Men, (the Kings?). The nine work as planned-the men soon become so tied to the Rings that they become Ringwraiths and are under his complete control-Sauron takes the Rings back, because the Men no longer need them-they’re changed permanently. The Dwarves aren’t AS affected, they lose some of the Rings, -but what about the others? Okay, this is where I’m a little confused.
Now then, the Elves still have THEIR Rings, and though they are not controlled by Sauron, they ARE linked to the One, and if THAT were to be destroyed, then the three would no longer work. Correct?
Okay, a question-HOW did Sauron get the original sixteen? Did he take them when they were done being forged, or did the Elves trust him to take care of them?
Do I have it right so far?
(Damn, this is good-and call me crazy, but I think seeing the films first helped me to understand better, because I can picture each character and keep them all straight-otherwise I’d be lost!)
Just jumping in with my .02 until somebody better comes along:
I don’t think the distribution mechanism of the 16 rings was ever spelled out in detail; probably, because it didn’t matter much. The elves (Celebrimbor, specifically) made the rings under Sauron’s tutelage, thinking everything was fine and dandy. Like, “now that we’ve made these cool rings, let’s pass them out to our friends, Men and Dwarves”. And then Sauron springs his surprise…bwaaahaaahaa.
Tolkien didn’t get specific about the dwarven rings (probably, IMHO, because he didn’t care as much about dwarves as he did Men and Elves). Only that they were all accounted for: either in Sauron’s possession, or irretrievably lost (eg, consumed by dragons). The only ring that is mentioned specifically is the one taken from Thrain when he was imprisoned in Dol Goldur.
(IIRC, there was a raging debate several years back on rec.arts.books.tolkien as to whether or not the Nazgul physically wore their rings, or if Sauron was holding them in a Barad-Dur safety deposit box. It got at least as passionate as the “do balrogs have wings” debate.)
Thanks everyone who replied.
After reading more of this thread, I have another question.
The terms, Grey Havens, Undying Lands, and Valinor all seemed to be used interchangably (or maybe I’m just reading it that way…). What is the difference between these three?
The Grey Havens are the place in Middle Earth (West of the Shire) where you set sail for the Undying Lands/Valinor.
Well, Valinor is where the Valar live. Located centrally on the continent of Aman, the Valar, Maiar, and elves live there. Since they don’t die, their lands are called the undying lands.
Tol Eressëa is an island formerly off the shores of Middle-Earth, which got dragged to just off the coast of Aman, laden with elves on their journey. Technically it’s not really part of Valinor, but it is the easternmost of the undying lands.
All the Undying Lands have been removed from the circles of the world, and are only accessible by the elves and “special” guests of the Valar.
Never explained in detail, as it isn’t that important. The ones that aren’t lost, Sauron has taken back. I believe four were consumed by dragons (along with their four owners) while three is in Sauron’s kitchen cupboard.
They trusted him.
Well, what do you mean by GET?
If you mean, “How did he manage to insert a secret backdoor into all the rings that later allowed him to control their wearers …” the answer is, the elves trusted him and greedily lapped up all of his forging/ringmaking knowledge without careful thought. (He looked like a nice guy, but nobody really knew who he was or where he came from.)
If you mean, “How did he gain actual physical possession of the rings?” the answer is that he waged brutal war, destroyed the entire elven community in Hollin (west of Moria) that forged them, and tortured Celebrimbor, the greatest ringsmith, until he surrendered them up.
Looking back at the earlier posts, I see some confusion. Here’s what happened:
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Sauron appears, looking cute and full of knowledge, and helps Celebrimbor and other Elves of Hollin make magical rings.
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They (Elves + Sauron) make a bunch of puny rings (number unknown), and then 16 Great Rings. It’s unclear, but it seems that the Seven and the Nine were, if not fundamentally different, at least different “batches”, for Celebrimbor will later refer to them as cohesive sets before Sauron ever regains them (more in a minute).
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Sauron, having gotten the elves into this whole ringmaking thing, walks away and goes to Mordor, where he begins forging the One Ring.
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Meanwhile, Celebrimbor, on his own, forges the Three. These rings were never touched by Sauron, are seemingly different from the other rings in some respects (i.e., even if Frodo had gotten his hands on Galadriel’s ring, it seems unlikely that he would have turned invisible, etc., though that’s not certain), but since Celebrimbor uses Sauron’s basic ring-recipe, he unwittingly makes them so that they are subject to the One Ring that Sauron is off making.
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Sauron finishes his ring. At this point, all 19 of the great rings are in the possession of Celebrimbor and the other elves of Hollin. No men/dwarves own any yet. The elves really aren’t the sharing kind, and are pretty self-centered (read the Silmarillion for more detail). This is all to Sauron’s plan–he REALLY wants to gain control over the elves, since they’re his primary foes in M-Earth. He doesn’t yet care about men (most are under his sway) or dwarves too much yet.
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Sauron, in Mordor, puts on his ring, and says the magic words (“one ring to rule them all…”), either to complete the spell, or to gloat to himself. But Celebrimbor and the other elves who are wearing Great Rings hear his words, realize they’ve been duped, and immediately take off their rings before Sauron can gain control of any of them.
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This pisses Sauron off.
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Sauron comes tearing out of Mordor, flattens most of Middle-Earth, and lays waste to Hollin. He gets hold of the nine, then tortures Celebrimbor to find out where the seven are hid. He never learns where the three lie (Celebrimbor sent them to Galadriel and Gil-Galad for safe-keeping), and Celebrimbor dies.
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War, etc. None of the elves use the Three at all for this time, since they would fall under Sauron’s control.
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Sauron deals out the 16. He give the nine to men, and they become ringwraiths, then he takes them back and has some nice ghosty slaves to do his work. He dishes out the Seven to dwarves, but the dwarves were built to resist domination, can’t be turned to wraiths, etc. All the Seven do are make them greedier, and help them amass huge hoards of wealth. This inflames numerous conflicts with their neighbors, and attracts dragons, who love gold. Dragons gobble up four of the rings, and Sauron, presumably guessing he’s gotten all the mileage out of the dwarves that he can, gets back the surviving three dwarven rings (the last by torturing Thrain in Dol Guldur).
Ah, that was what I meant, Toadspittle.
And dumb question-what is a “Shieldmaiden?”
A female warrior/soldier.
Okay.
Now, another thing that occurred to me-why did the Ring start to affect Smeagol right away, when it didn’t do so to Bilbo or Frodo or anyone else? I mean, right away he was murdering his best friend!!!
I think Sméagol wasn’t a very nice person in the first place. The Ring didn’t really have to do much to him to push him over the edge, as he really didn’t have all that many scruples against murder originally.