I have to agree with octopus. Your analogy doesn’t hold up.
Rick and his team:
-Didn’t just take over Alexandria by force (although they thought about it real hard)
-Summarily kill Jesus when he stole their truck or caused it’s sinking in a lake with much needed supplies or surprised Rick and Michione in their bedroom.
-Don’t waylay travelers on the road and take all their shit.
-Negotiated with Gregory instead of saying “these M4A1 carbines against your sharpened sticks say we’re just going to take the other half of your supplies”.
-Intervened when the Hilltop guy tried to assassinate Gregory. And didn’t kill everyone else in the place.
-Don’t eat people.
-They don’t leave traps for people.
-Send out patrols to actively recruit people into Alexandria.
-Don’t mutilate their own group for committing minor offenses (hell, Carol killed people and Rick just drove her to the country for awhile).
-Don’t kill the first person they meet “off the bat”
As someone pointed out to me in another thread, what they do know about Negan’s group is:
-They ambush, rob and kill people they encounter
-They extort other communities through murder and kidnapping
-They try to assassinate the leaders of other communities
So from Rick’s perspective, after Woodbury and the Governor, Grady General Hospital, Terminus, the Claimers, and the Wolves, the Saviors are just another group of violent assholes who they will go to war with eventually. Mind as well start it now while they have surprise on their side.
So if that was Daryl’s bike that bald baddie was riding he either stole it from the guy and girl that stole it from Daryl or guy and girl are part of Negan, right?
I don’t see the Nazi analogy. Rick’s group has been willing to work with many of the groups mentioned. They’re willing to trade with the Hilltoppers but Negan’s group only seems to have a history of killing people and taking their stuff simply because Negan says they can plus they all believe they are Negan.
A few of the inmates at the prison were trying to kill Rick and Co during walker clearing operations even though they had previously agreed to work with Rick’s group and share the prison. Rick killed the leader before he could kill Rick. Two(?) of the inmates had been accepted into Rick’s group. Bust a deal, face the wheel. Wheel being the 6-shot wheel gun in Rick’s holster or an axe.
The Alexandrians and Rick’s group were willing to work together. Even when attacked by Wolves and walkers. It took some convincing but it’s worked.
There were two Woodburys. One which the average residents could see, and one where the Governor and his henchmen were murdering soldiers to steal weapons, capturing walkers to use as weapons and for testing purposes, and hunting down the Woodburians who chose to leave. An attempt was made but the Governor couldn’t be trusted.
Dawn’s patrol at the hospital took in survivors but treated them like slaves. A fed slave is better then being on your own in the ZA? It was Dawn’s decision to demand everyone-hates-Noah at the prisoner exchange which triggered something primal in Beth.
The Claimers were a band of roving thugs. Just a dangerous to themselves as to anyone they came in contact with.
I assume the pair would have been killed, captured, ran out of gas, or grew tired of that loud-azz bike drawing walkers and Saviors from miles around and abandoned it.
If the pair had changed their mind about running away from Negan’s group, wouldn’t they have brought Daryl and the bike to Negan as a peace offering?
A Savior claims that the Saviors found Daryl’s one-of-a-kind bike. I do believe that the Saviors, and Negan, are pathological liars and the only thing that didn’t happen was that the Saviors simply found Daryl’s bike.
They seem way more organized in general. Considering the unrelenting stupidity of Rick’s group, I’m not sure I shouldn’t be rooting for the Neganites instead. Finally, a group of people that has their shit together. And considering Rick and gang have gotten to the point of murdering people in their sleep, burning people alive, and executing prisoners, it’s not like being evil is much of a differentiator anymore.
I still respectfully disagree. Daryl’s had two bad run ins with Negan’s group. Then we have Hilltop which had a teenager beat to death as an introduction to Negan’s group. While Rick’s group was negotiating in good faith and from a position of superior strength (RPGs and assault rifles vs spears and Jesus) they witness an assassination attempt on Hilltop’s leader. Rick’s group aren’t soft but they aren’t evil.
“Open spoilers” applies to this week’s episode only. Not next week’s episode or anything associated with next week’s episode. Comic book spoilers have also traditionally been discouraged in these show threads. Fan wanking is fine as it spoils nothing.
If you think about it, this makes sense. We are here to discuss this week’s episode by and for people who have seen this week’s episode. People who will not be spoiled by reading any details posted here. Unless someone comes in a posts something about next week’s episode that they saw in a preview, that is.
I’m not a fan of the philosophy of pre-emptive killing. But I will say that so far, Rick & Co. have not crossed one even more horrifying line: they don’t kill for sport. They aren’t sadists. Those saying that Our Gang are just as bad as the Governor may have forgotten his little habit of forcing people to fight to the death, as entertainment (and as a tactic of intimidation, of course).
Anyway, this episode did (in my view) an excellent job of addressing the 'what have we become, and what might we become?’ issue. The dialog of Paula and her people was quite illuminating on the very true-life psychological process involved in rationalizing aggression against others. For example, notice the way she and Moll decided–amazingly quickly–that Rick was An Asshole, and therefore that he deserved to die at their hands.
The psychology in general was very believable in this episode; I didn’t notice any of the plot contrivances that TWD is all too prone to employing. Nobody had to be absurdly dim-witted in order to make the story move along.* Outside of the somewhat-implausible gun play, there were no real eye-rolling moments.
I suppose that this is damning with faint praise, but I’m often not very impressed by the writing on this show, and this episode is a exception. Also, the performances were really good. As someone said earlier, it’s a shame that Alicia Witt won’t be back (maybe the character has a twin sister…??..^_~)
*Yes, the Saviors did leave Carol and Maggie unattended. But in the context this didn’t seem implausibly stupid: there were few of the Saviors; they had captured two women who presented no evidence of being badasses; and they were secured in a way that they genuinely couldn’t escape without a tool. Okay, so leaving Carol the rosary was a little dumb, but not eye-rollingly so.
Looks like Morgan’s gettin to Carol. I did like that as much as she hesitated to kill leader chick, she killed the other one instantly the second she cut Maggie’s stomach.
Can someone who’s read the comics elaborate on the general nature of them all being Negan (if that’s even in the comics)? Is there literally one person who is the actual Negan, or is it a group name, or as suggested a “Spartacus” thing where it’s like if our group were to all say “I’m Rick” or what? (remember to put it in a box for the spoilerphobes)
They also don’t kill to take, which is the main difference between them and the “bad” groups. So far they’ve killed to protect themselves, others or their property, all which are perfectly justified.
[spoiler]It’s not worth riling up the people who want to pretend the comics don’t exist in the TV threads. I’d suggest opening a new thread or checking here:
That is a disambiguation page and spoiler free, but as soon as you follow a link to Negan’s comic book or TV series page there will be spoilers. The TV series page has fewer spoilers but will answer your question.[/spoiler]
Terrible analogy. Rick & Co. are far from heroes, but in the cases of Woodbury, Terminus, and the Wolves, Team Grimes didn’t start anything; they unambiguously defended themselves after being attacked.
Neither the Governor nor Lori Grimes appear in the previews for next week’s Walking Dead, and at no point do Lauren Cohan or Norman Reedus do any full-frontal nudity.
I skipped the Saviors because the last two episodes were far more ambiguous than the confrontations with Terminus, Woodbury, and the Wolves; I was objecting to lumping the latter three with the Savior war.
Hell, there is absolutely NO moral ambiguity in the fight with the Wolves; the Wolves were inarguably villains, and nothing was done to them that wasn’t morally justified. The only morally questionable act in the fight with the Termites was Carol allowing Mary (Candle Woman, played by Denise Crosby) to be eaten alive when she could have spared her that torture with one bullet.