Please show me where I said anything like this. It’s really damn stupid, in fact I don’t think anyone in this thread actually believes that.
Seriously? How many times has the OP been accused of disliking women in this thread? Don’t be ridiculous.
Cool. Thanks!
Who? Where? There are a lot of straw men and women in this thread and I am getting mixed up.
How did we get from some people accusing the OP of disliking women (and I’m not even sure that anyone has done that, but I won’t quibble the point) to
?
Let’s pick one from the batch… ladyfoxfyre, post 232.
Mind quoting the objectionable bit? (Here’s the link for your convenience.)
I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. I honestly cannot see anything in that post that approaches a negative generalization about men, it is a reflection on her own experiences and her own inferences of the OP. If you honestly cannot miss it, then we are clearly working from radically different assumptions about male/female relationships, and that fact in and of itself will explain our differences.
BTW, the “embittered rapist” thing is obvious and unnecessary hyperbole, and defending it certainly doesn’t help your position that women are not justified in thinking that men might not respect them.
I hope this doesn’t come across as harsh, but WHAT THE BLOODY FUCK ARE YOU PLAYING AT?
Why in the name of our merciful Savior are you playing attention to limits imposed by her ex-boyfriend? He does not have your best interests at heart.
That’s not being a Nice Guy, that’s being a schmuck.
Faint heart never won fair lady. You do not need her ex-boyfriend’s permission to move in on this girl, and there is no percentage whatever in waiting for it.
Women like to be pursued, but you actually have to put on your track shoes.
And do not allow her to talk about ex-boyfriends with you. That’s how you get relegated to the “Understanding Friend Who Never Gets Any”. Just keep deflecting mention of his name with “I don’t wanna talk about him - I wanna talk about you. What was the last book you read? What does your family do on Christmas? Are you wearing a bra?”
OK, maybe not the last part, at least not right away, but you get the point.
I get the feeling you need to be a bit more pushy. This has two advantages -[ul][li]Women like to be able to say “He swept me off my feet”. It makes them feel desirable to have guys competing for them. [*]It also pushes them to either go out with you, or say a definite No so you can go on to the next candidate.[/ul]If you ask a lot of women out, the law of averages works in your favor. Plus you get a lot more practice in asking women out, and figure out eventually that nothing very bad happens if they say No. [/li]
So you ask someone out, and she says No. Then you ask her room mate, and she says Yes. All of a sudden, on some level. she has lost out on something. People look at things different when they can’t just have them for the asking.
“Ask, and ye shall receive” is a much sounder aphorism than “good things come to he who waits” when it comes to matters romantic.
Women do go for nice guys, but the nice guys have to try.
Regards,
Shodan
On review - cowgirl is right and I may have sprinkled a little too much hyperbole into the discussion.
But so is everybody accusing the OP (and by extension, all the Nice Guys) of misogyny. Victim complexes are flying back and forth and while I will apologize for the over-the-top language, I believe my point remains valid.
It appears so. What ladyfoxfyre is saying is that the men she calls Nice Guys feel entitled to sex. I’m saying they don’t, or at least that she has no reason to believe they don’t. In post 232, among others, she makes her view clear, which is what you asked me for.
It’s simple, really. In a relationship, both parties are trying to get the best partner that they think they can reasonably find. ‘Nice’ isn’t the only thing that feeds into the quality equation… there’s also attraction, status, wealth, interest, etc. If you’re overdoing the ‘nice’ thing, it means 2 things: you’re probably overcompensating for other weaknesses, and you can be set on the back burner until more interesting possibilities are exhausted. Notice that nice guys invariably do well if they are older, wealthier, witty, attractive, etc.
As a young, underemployed man, dating just sucks. If you can avoid getting bitter in your 20’s, rich rewards await you later. In the meantime do the best you can do improve your game, and for heaven’s sake, don’t grovel or act desperate.
Skimmed this thread a bit.
Reltionships are more complicated than Stephen Hawking´s theories.
It must be this part:
Which has been the same thing I’ve been trying to say this whole time. You keep asking me where I get this conclusion from. I keep trying to tell you. You tell me that’s not proof, it’s just my opinion. Yes, but we’re arguing about exactly that, perceptions, and this is my perception, which is inferred from statements such as the ones I’ve shown you. Beyond that, I’m not sure anymore what we’re arguing. And then Interconnected Series of Tubes, seemingly without reading anything, infers from nothing he can quote that I think all these guys are misogynists. I don’t personally think they hate women, all I’ve said are that they not as nice as they think they are.
I feel like the conversation is going like this:
OP- “Why don’t women like nice guys, I’m very nice, women don’t like me, ergo they must not like nice guys”
Women - “It’s not that we don’t like nice guys, it’s that there is a group of men who aren’t all that nice who think they are. We like nice guys just fine, many of us married nice guys. What we don’t like are not-nice guys who think they are nice and that there must be something wrong with women that we don’t like them.”
Some men - "What are these Nice Guys you speak of? I’ve never heard of anything like that. I’ve never seen it, I don’t think it exists.
Women - “I’ve seen it. Me too. I could name a dozen guys who say stuff like this and fit this mold. I can name a hundred! Here’s some guys I’ve dated who were just like that.”
Some men - “The truth is, women don’t like nice guys, they want to get banged by bikers.”
Women - “No, that’s not the case. Of course you wouldn’t have as much exposure to the Nice Guys as we do, you’re not rejecting them and having relationships with them as frequently as we are. We don’t like what they do and who they are so we choose not to date them. Actual nice guys are fine.”
Some men - “Well, there are a lot of guys who are shy and bad with women, there’s nothing wrong with them.”
Women - “Of course there’s nothing wrong with them, many of us married them, but we’re not talking about them. We are talking about Nice Guys, in capital letters, to differentiate them from guys who are nice. Nice Guys seem like they feel that the world owes them something, we don’t like that.”
Some men - “Why do you think they feel entitled? Just because they sound entitled? What if they’re not actually entitled and they’re just sad and lonely?”
Women- “The sad lonely guys are not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about the jerks who think they’re nice and doing everything right and women are to blame for the fact that they’re not getting any.”
Some men - “Well maybe you’re just labeling them as Nice Guys because you don’t want to date them because they’re quiet and shy and bad with women, who are traditionally not as attractive to women, so that you don’t feel bad about rejecting them for being all of those other things but there’s nothing really wrong with them…”
Women - “Okay. Again. Not talking about the same people”
Some men - “Well this Nice Guy thing is a myth because we’ve never seen it but we have seen chicks who want to get banged by bikers so that is definitely true, but this Nice Guy thing is all in your head and you can’t show me why you think this is real, or why you think it sounds entitled, so it’s all made up by women.”
Women - “Why would we make that up.”
Some men - “I don’t know, you tell me? Why did you make it up?”
Women - "We didn’t, this is what we’ve seen. This is our experience, these are the inferences we make from those experiences, this is a small subset of men, definitely not even close to all. "
Some men - “You all just need to stop thinking all men hate women and feel entitled to sex and relationships because that is not true and you have absolutely no reason to think that all men are like this.”
Women - “:smack:”
Until both groups of us are talking at the other and not about the same thing at all. That’s how I feel anyway.
If, like cowgirl, you are now saying that it’s all your perception, then fine. But what you’ve been consistently saying, most clearly I think in post 246, is that it’s not just your perception but accurately reflects the mindset of these men. That’s what I’m contesting, that’s what I don’t understand the origin of. Having been subjected to the same baseless accusations, it bothers me.
I’m in late to this discussion, but I think what she may be trying to say is that the whole self-pitying victim persona some guys get, the sense of entitlement, is really unattractive, and by itself may constitute the sole reason a girl labels a nice guy a “Nice Guy” in her mind before dismissing him as a waste of time.
No one likes a negative attitude.
Yes. I came into this thread without having read any of it, explicitly to make fun of you. In fact, I’ve been contending this entire time that Nice Guys don’t even exist! It’s all your fault, pesky broad, now go make a sammich or something.
For somebody so easily ruffled at being misquoted (although you’re not, but I’m not going to make an itemized list of all the accusations in this thread) you’re sure putting a lot of words in my mouth. You’re the victim here, boo-hoo, poor you.
Why is your opinion on the matter any more elucidated than mine? It’s not - except I’m not trying to retcon my posts and weasel out of what I’ve said. You’re not going to listen, though, because you’re right and I’m not. :rolleyes:
My intention isn’t to turn this into a pissing match, so I’ll leave it at that.
This entire argument has been about perceptions, unless you through the course of 8 pages honestly believed that there is a way to quantify a discussion about dating woes. Let’s get this clear, since I must have not made this clear. I do not believe that all guys who consider themselves nice hate women and feel entitled to sex.
What I’ve been trying to say is that it’s not just my perception, it’s the perception of a whole bunch of women who have dealt with these types of guys, and that perception comes from the things they say about themselves. That there is a big disconnect between what qualities they have, what they think women desire in a man, and the conclusion that they possess all the desirable qualities and therefore the problem must be with the women.
One google definition of entitlement is “The state of meeting the applicable requirements for receipt of benefits.” ISTM, that when you believe you’ve met the requirements of what you think women want, and conclude that women must not like positive qualities in men or otherwise they’d be interested in you, that sounds like a sense of entitlement. Not the fact that someone wonders about it. The part where they decide that women must be irrational and stupid beings for not liking “nice guys” which they believe themselves to be.
But since this has turned into a debate about what the other one allegedly thinks, I think it’s pretty pointless now. And Tubes, you still won’t take my word for it that I don’t think these guys are misogynists. Other people have said that they think that, but I haven’t, and I’m not trying to “weasel” out of anything.
I think if you actually did make a list, you’d find most of those accusations didn’t come from me. There has been a lot said here. Not all nor most of it has come from me. But whatever, this is stupid and pointless now. I’m out too.
I spent many years believing that women know almost immediately upon meeting a man if they would ever have a romantic relationship with him. I used to espouse this theory to all my male and female friends alike.
Then I found the most passionate and spirited relationship I have ever known, my most favorite relationship ever. It was with a man I had known for 14 years.
Go figure. Life is strange sometimes, that’s what keeps things interesting.
This seems to be the crux of all the disputing, to me.
I think we could agree that “nice” could be very different, quantitatively and qualitatively. E.g. I’ve known people who had little but would share whatever they could with those less fortunate than them—and I’ve known people who had so much and were too stingy to part with anything.
“Bad with women”—it’s one thing to forget to hold a door for her, and it’s quite another to get all grabby with her on the first date. (“He took it out.” ~Elaine Benes, on Seinfeld.)
I also think there are men who are codependent. They’ll do anything to win her, which sounds like a good thing on the face of it, but as posted, it would get pretty cloying pretty fast and yeah, could be manipulative or become so. I think that arises because the harder you work for something, the more you perceive it to be “worth.” At first it may seem altruistic but ultimately there’s supposed to be a payoff.
Gawd, this thread is like heroin. I think I’ll start a new thread. Let’s differentiate the nice guy from the Nice Guy.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10287240#post10287240
ladyfoxfyre, you have stated in no uncertain terms that your claim is that the men you speak of do feel entitled to sex. Not that it’s just a vibe you get but that the vibe has basis. I have stated equally clearly that I disagree with that, not with anything else.
Priceguy, I’m trying to PM you but it’s not allowing me to.
God, I can’t believe I’m doing this.
This is but one of my experiences with a Nice Guy. I hope it illucidates what we’ve been trying to differentiate between Nice Guy Syndrome and a good man.
When I was in my early twenties I started a new part time job. At this job I met co-worker named Dave who was my same age. At first blush, Dave was funny, smart, nice (lower case “n”) and really liberal, which was awesome. I thought the things he did for me and the concern he showed was because we were friends. The things I did for him and the concern I showed him were because we were friends.
Dave and I became friends because we had so much in common and I genuinely like the guy. I was not interested in him romantically.
After awhile, and a bit into our friendship, Dave made it clear that he wanted to be my boyfriend. Man, that sucked. Because I had to have that talk where I very considerately and kindly told him all the things I really liked about him and how much I enjoyed being friends with him and how important he was to me, but I just didn’t share those feelings. It really sucked for me because I knew I’d be losing a friendship that I really enjoyed.
Now, if Dave had been upset for awhile and our friendship ended, that would have been understandable.
What Dave did, however, is react the way Nice Guys do. (This is the key to the Nice Guy distinction, so pay attention.) Dave wasn’t just hurt and dejected, he developed an entire plot of revenge and vengeance against me. He lied about me at work. He tried to get me fired. He spread rumors that I was a whore. He tried to get me involved in a discrimination lawsuit. He harassed me at home. He probably fucked with my car (I can’t prove it).
His rage against me was not at all in proportion to my romantic rejection of him. The level and intensity of his desire to see me really, really hurt in my life comes from that entitlement we’ve been talking about.
He’s not the only Nice Guy I’ve dealt with in my life, but he was the one I was most scared of. We’re talking about men who, when rejected romantically, react in a way that is over the top and out of line with the “risk” they’re taking. These are the ones that hate you for rejecting them, that need to denigrate you when you do. The ones that were so nice to begin with.
I first experienced this in eight grade. I kindly and considerately said no when a boy asked to go steady with me, and he reacted to telling all his friends what a skank I was. And for what? So he wouldn’t look like the loser. Someone’s gotta win and someone’s gotta lose, and if you don’t return my romantic feelings, then you are gonna pay for it, bitch.
Christ, does this help at all? These men/boys don’t do nice things for women because they like them. They do them because they expect something in return. When they don’t get it they react with anger and resentfulness and all kinds of blame on the object. They never ever just take rejection as painful but a part of life and move on. They get mad. And they get mad because they feel you owe them since they’ve done so much for you, or where so nice to you.
It’s like the guy who expects sex if he buys you dinner and is a dick about it, only worse.
Now that I’m older, I can spot a Nice Guy a mile away, but when you’re younger, you take their initial kindness at face value.