To all the girls: Why don't you like nice guys?

In My Humble Opinion
61

There are a lot of good truths in here! And interestingly, I posted a sort of rant-y explanation for this “girls don’t like nice guys phenomenon” that I hear my guy friends bitch and moan about on Craigslist last week. What my point was, was that nice guys are not good guys for girls.

Here it is:

I got some good emails from that, and one of the replies that struck a chord with me was “Selfish people are unable to give their love, selfless people are unable to accept it.” Since relationships are give and take, you have to be selfish sometimes and selfless others; it can’t be one or the other ALL THE TIME. Nice guys tend to see themselves as selfless, which leads to boring conversations and subsequently a very boring relationship.

62

Holy shit. That is the most glorious thing I’ve read all day. This post sums up all of what I think about guys and myself, in just two succinct paragraphs.

63

I agree, pbbth did do a great job in addressing what was at the heart of my question. I guess my concern, and why I asked, is it would seem to me to be a fine line to tread that could easily be interpreted as “Warning: Nice Guy” instead.

MeanJoe: “Dinner? Sure! Where would you like to go?”
MeanJoe’s Thoughts: This is an attractive and funny woman and I don’t care where we eat, I’m more interested in getting spend some time with her than what’s on the menu.

Imaginary Date’s Thoughts: Oh God, another passive-aggresive Nice Guy who just wants to make me happy and has no opinions!
Imaginary Date: “Um… I just remembered I have to wash my hair!”

Okay, that is a really lame and simple example but I think you can get my drift. :smiley:

MeanJoe - Who is reading this thread with interest and trying to reflect upon his own behaviors/attitudes which maybe symptoms of that Nice Guy attitude.

64

I throw my lot in with the other females who’ve said that I’m not a fan of Nice Guy Syndrome. If a guy has to emphasize how nice he is to me, he probably isn’t that nice. Or if he is as nice as advertised, he’s probably a doormat. I need someone as passionate as I am who won’t get offended when I speak directly and who won’t follow me around like a kicked puppy. Which is why I married my husband - he’s not a Nice Guy, though he is a wonderful man and compliments me well (meaning that in areas where I am lacking, he excels; in areas where he’s lacking, I excel). I don’t want to spend time with someone who is so focused on sex and what a nice guy he is, girls must be stupid for not wanting him, etc.

Don’t get me wrong - I like to be treated well, but I don’t want the only thing I think of when I think of a man to be “Aww, what a Nice Guy.” Making me think that way never would have gotten my husband into my pants.

65

Frankly, I went through the same issues as the OP in my 20’s because I was always told, by the women of my mothers’ generation, that being a nice boy is what women wanted. They don’t. Not even the 29+ crowd.

You’ve got to challenge them, give them something to love you for AND something to hate you for. Make the thing they love you for a powerful thing (remember their middle name, birthday, some random thing they told you that’s obviously important to them)and the thing they hate you for a lesser thing like toilet seats etc. (see Little Plastic Ninja’s post).

I did the same allegedly chivalrous things that you seem to be doing and you’re finding out as I did, they don’t work. Women don’t respect what we see as chivalry (as proven by the witnessing in the thread) they see it as weakness because by the time we reveal the other side of our personality, if there is one, it’s too late. By then you’re on the express train to friendville.

I’ll share with you Auto the two things that should cure this seemingly terminal singlehood.

Be yourself. Pay attention.

First. Repress nothing (aside from the really weird shit) and give her only what she’s earned when it comes to respect.
If you’re busy, be busy, don’t drop anything for her unless she’s in real trouble. If she calls and says “I need help, my car’s broke down in this really rough neighborhood and I’m scared” Drop what you’re doing and go to her. If she calls AFTER you’ve made plans though, that’s tough. Say “sorry honey, I’m going out with the boys, I’ll call you later”

Second. Details matter. Women are classic overthinkers. They worry, nay, obsess over countless things, often at the same time. Men’s brains typically don’t work that way. If you remember some minor (often meaningless) detail that she’s told you and can recal them at will, you’re in like Flynn. Extra points for noticing things that she doesn’t know she does (i.e. biting her lip while she thinks etc) and telling her about it. Caveat. Don’t remember EVERYTHING, makes you look stalkerish and weird. Women are all about the details, it’s the reason handbags, earrings and jewelry have such a huge market. A woman will notice things about another woman as she walks by that a room full of trained detectives would miss in a standing line-up. It’s how they are.

Ironically, the “nice” guy ends up treating a woman as an object to be treasured instead of a thinking, breathing, human companion. If you do this, she will turn on you like a monkey with a stolen cupcake.

Truth is, you can treasure a woman without letting her walk all over you, in fact, that’s the only way to happiness, you’re your own person, she’s got to be hers. As soon as you find the boundaries of your internal balance, you will find a woman. If you continue to be the guy that drops everything and comes a-runnin everytime she calls you, you’re going to be alone a LONG time.

66

I have a question for all the so-called “Nice Guys”: Who the hell actually says you’re nice? And where do you get the idea that women don’t like or have relationships with nice guys?

Next week I am marrying one of the nicest guys I’ve ever known in my entire life. He’s an animal lover, spent a lot of time working with mentally challenged youth, has the patience of a saint, does all the cooking and most of the cleaning around the house, and took time off work to help my mom when she had her stroke. He calls his own mother just to say hello or ask for a recipe. Hell, I don’t even do that.

But I tell you one thing, he would never in a million years consider himself a “Nice Guy.” If you were to ask he’d probably even say he’s a bit of an ass sometimes. It’s because he’s got a healthy perspective on life, and doesn’t think of the world in terms of what he’s owed or why. He doesn’t define himself by what he does for others. He just lives, loves, and tries to enjoy the simple things in life. And that is what I find attractive about him. He’s a nice guy, but he’s not a Nice Guy.

67

The problem here is that you don’t appear to be putting any thought or effort into the situation. Just, “Dinner? Sure! Where do you want to go?” translates to, “I don’t care what we do as long as I get laid afterwards.”

This conversation should go like this:

MeanJoe: “Dinner? Sure! I know of this great Italian place over on 4th Ave if you’d like or maybe we could go to that Thai place on Madison. Do either of those work for you or would you rather go someplace else?”
MeanJoe’s Thoughts: This is an attractive and funny woman and I don’t care where we eat, I’m more interested in getting spend some time with her than what’s on the menu.
Imaginary Date: “Ooh, let’s go to the Italian place! I haven’t had good chicken marsala in a while!”
Imaginary Date’s Thoughts: Wow, he likes me enough to have put some thought into this date but he is flexible enough to change his plans if I have a better suggestion!

68

Yeah, what she said. Expound. ANYTHING is better than “I don’t care.” You don’t even have to be as suave and knowledgeable as pbbth’s example.

“I’m in the mood for some Italian. Or Mexican. What do you think?”
“I don’t really care, I ate out a couple of times this week so I’m game for anything.”
“I dunno, what’s good around here? Any place you’re interested in trying?”
“I know it’s cheesy, but my mom recommended this diner not too far from your place. Want to try it out?”

Simply stating that you don’t care either means “I don’t care as long as I get some brownie points for taking you out and maybe you’ll sleep with me” or “I don’t care because I’m creepy and just want to watch you eat.” I have known both to be true.

I really like XJETGIRLX’s post, too. Her man IS a nice guy because of all the other things he does in his life that are nice. And he’s humble about it. He was nice on his own accord, nice before he met her, and will be nice after they’re married.

If all your “niceness” centers on how charming you can be around all women, and how sympathetic you are to talk to on the phone then wtf? I can get that from my brother.

69

Yeah, I’m repeating what a lot of ladies have said, but Nice Guys are often everything but nice. A lot of self-described Nice Guys have this idea that if they’re nice to a girl, then they ‘deserve’ a fuck – look, buddy, I’ll fuck you when and if I want to, not because you think you’ve ‘earned’ it. If you think you’re such a Nice Guy, really stop and take a look at yourself. You probably ain’t the first Nice Guy these girls have run into, and they may be wise to your shit.

Every every month or so, the Dope’ll get a thread from a self-described Nice Guy who, goshdarned it, just can’t find a girl who can appreciate him. A lot of these guys come across as geeky, boring, and whiny, they act like women owe them something, and they don’t want advice so much as people patting them on the back and telling them how right they are. Hey, guess what! Neither I, nor 99.99% of women on this planet are attracted to losers like that. I know a lot of cool geeky guys, but they can talk about something other than Halo. They have sexy, masculine interests like playing guitar or mountain biking. They treat me and other women with respect, even the ones they’re not trying to fuck. They’re funny, and self-confident, and are going somewhere with their lives. These are good men. I’d be proud to date or marry them.

70

I see – so when women get horny or lonely, the fact that they’re not horny or lonely for one particular guy isn’t a detraction in their case?
And how would a woman know that the guy isn’t depressed because he’s missing the companionship of One Particular Woman,. and therefore know he’s fdepraved?

I don’t see the relevance.

71

Where were you when I was dating???

Actually, my husband falls into this category. He’s said some of the same things you have here. I’d rather have a nice guy than a bad boy.

72

For me, it’s more like this:

MeanJoe: “Dinner? Sure! Where would you like to go?”
MeanJoe’s Thoughts: This is an attractive and funny woman and I don’t care where we eat, I’m more interested in getting spend some time with her than what’s on the menu.

Me: Oh shit. How the hell do I know how much he wants to spend? If I suggest someplace too expensive, I seem like a princess and he may not be able to afford it. If I suggest something too cheap, he might be unhappy because he wants to take me someplace “nice,” and I might seem like I don’t know from fine dining. Why couldn’t he just suggest something so I know what kind of ballpark we’re in?
Me: “Um… why don’t we go out for a drink instead?”

By asking "where would you like to go, you’ve just thrown the whole decision into her lap. That’s not “nice.” You don’t have to make the decision all by yourself either, but at least be a part of the process! And yes, you do have to have some places in mind.

Better alternatives

MeanJoe: Did you have anywhere in particular you’d like to go?
Me: Not really…
MeanJoe: Well, I know this great little Thai place.
Me: Sounds good.

or

MeanJoe: I know this great little Thai place. Do you like Thai food?
Me: Yes, I love it. Sounds good.

or

MeanJoe: I know this great little Vietnamese place. Do you like Vietnamese food?
Me: I’m not crazy about it actually.
MeanJoe: Do you like Italian?
Me: Love it.
MeanJoe: Cool. I know a good place.

(Don’t ask me why I like Thai but not Vietnamese. I know it makes no sense.)

73

I have to agree with this 100%. The guys I like (25 year old female here) are good guys, absolutely, but tend to be a touch arrogant. Let me specify what I mean by “arrogant”: aggressively confident. A bit cocky, even. Of course, that’s my own personality style as well, and I’m a bit narcissistic (in a good way!), so I tend to like people with similar personalities to mine. I think if you try to internalize a bit of “I’m so freakin’ cool!” it might do you good. Do not follow that with “…so all of these girls should be banging me,” but instead with “…so these girls are crazy if they don’t like me” and just shrug it off if they don’t. I tend to assume that anyone who doesn’t like me has deep personality flaws, so it’s best that they don’t like me.

At the end of the day, though, those cocky and arrogant fellows need to have more substance to them than just their confidence, or else they’re just assholes. I happen to think you’re cute (including your nose!), funny, and smart, Autolycus, and you shouldn’t be down on yourself like this. I have confidence that you will find some romantic happiness (if only for one night, even) very soon.

Oh, and if you really must search at the bar, play some pool with the guys, and ignore the women while you do so (for the most part). It helps keep you from looking desperate, allows girls to check you out surreptitously while you’re playing, and adds a bit to your coolness quotient, even if you’re not very good at pool. Trust me. Cute guys turn hot when they play pool. Darts or foosball are also good, just not those damn trivia machine things.

74

More than once in my single past I got some variant of: “I like you, but not in that way. Let’s be friends.”

And my response was consistently along the lines of: “No, I have enough friends. I was looking for a girlfriend.”

Any guesses on how things went after that?

75

All,

Thank you for your responses. My example was clearly an over-simplification and not a very realistic example of the where does the line exist between “Nice Guy” and just deference and consideration of the other person.

That said, I will steal some of your suggestions on how to ask someone out to dinner. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again - I can get a bit tongue-tied or clumsy when chatting up a woman. :smiley:

MeanJoe

76

I’m on the edge of my seat in anticipation!

MeanJoe

77

Don’t be silly, Cal. You know who turns up for these threads: men who are short on self-esteem and can’t get dates because of it, and women whose idea of a fun time is to pound on them and give them something to have less self-esteem about.

There’s a female equivalent of the “Nice Guy Lament” too - it generally entails something about men being shallow, superficial and only interested in hotness regardless of personality.

I, of course, have never had any issues with the female sex in general or specific instances of them in particular. :wink:

78

As in, maybe what we need is very specific, targeted forms of assertiveness training for Problem Nice Guys.

I’m convinced that a large part of their (all right, our :rolleyes: ) problem is not with women, but with other men. Comparing-and-despairing ourselves with them. Competing on their (often disadvantageous) terms, not just for companionship/sex, but for friendship, status and identity. Learning just what “confidence” is and isn’t.

Unless our social system needs a certain percentage of outsider males to function at optimum, something has to be done for these men. They’re not just going to grow out of it, or shuffle off into the shadows, but are liable to cause themselves and others a lot of needless misery.

79

Oh, yeah. . . commitment phobic as well.

And there is nothing more pitiful than the friendship between the “nice guy” and the “not hot girl” where they go everywhere together, are great friends…and whine constantly about how ‘nice guys don’t get dates’ and ‘guys only want to date hot girls.’ He doesn’t want to actually DATE her because she isn’t hot…she doesn’t actually want to DATE him because she’s holding out for Brad Pitt herself.

80

Reformed Nice Guy here. I don’t think Nice Guy Syndrome is necessarily a symptom of passive aggression or entitlement, but I know that a lot of the time, it’s a crutch.

My problem with women wasn’t that I looked like a slob. Or that I couldn’t engage strangers in conversation. Or that I reeked of desperation. No, the problem was that I was just too damn nice.

Then when I was 22-23, I lost some weight, got a decent haircut, and learned how to dress myself. I began to understand that I did not need to share all my views on everything in the world within 15 minutes of meeting someone. When I was attracted to a woman, I maintained the attitude that somebody, sometime soon, will want to sleep with me, so it does not have to be this person, tonight. I never started throwing old ladies into the fjord or whatever it is that Asshole Guys do, but suddenly women were interested in me.

I think the issue is that women don’t want nice guys, they want fuckable nice guys. Men are the same way. Every guy wants a cool girlfriend, but most guys have cool female friends to whom they are not attracted.

ETA: What Dangerosa said.

And as others have said, being a Nice Guy is like being a Maverick – if you really are one, people will figure it out without being told.