Treis, no means no.

The BBQ Pit
281

I regret getting involved in this thread and ultimately I blame my own buffoonery for the shitstorm that is the past 3 pages. The flow of my “logic” went roughly:

-Someone said that signals were a hollywood construct.
-I question that.
-Someone asked what signals could trump a verbal no - which is not what was originally posited.
-I countered that in nonsexual encounters, verbal no’s are sometimes not indicative of what that person is truly feeling. Erring on the side of caution in the bedroom is still wise though.
-Where I put my foot in my mouth: I further state that a lot of the times, before a no is given and confirmed, miscues of differing expectations are probably just misunderstandings and not necessarily indicative something more devious. Examples are given.
-Rain of insults.
-I try to explain again that miscues, especially for activities that don’t involve sex, happen frequently. I cite MOL’s original statement that “nothing is happening to night” can be potentially ambiguous as to the “nothing” if it’s referring to sex, kissing, etc. I did not and would not defend the ensuing attempts of making out.

  • Rain of insults.
  • I ask the question (and derail everything) if misunderstandings like unwanted kisses really bother women so much that they’re so quick to file it under sexual assault?
  • Rain of insults.
  • I offer my opinion that kissing and penetration seem to be wildly different in terms of offensiveness, to the point that the two almost seem like different crimes.
  • Rain of insults, and the gist is… yes. Forced anything is an abomination and I’m a sex craved animal for thinking otherwise.

Maybe the difference between forced kissing and rape is a stupid debate but I was genuinely curious. Even with the gay analogy I’m still amazed at the defensiveness that an unwanted kiss can invoke in some posters. I’m trying to show empathy. I want to know. Even with emcee’s latest post, a forced kiss is characterized as scary, traumatizing, losing control of the situation, with a lot of fear placed on the unknown. That’s a foreign concept to me. I don’t expect the act of someone - even a massive hyperaggressive male kissing me unexpectedly - to instill those emotions in me. I would expect to feel shock, confusion, and anger. I wouldn’t expect to feel helplessness until I’ve completely exhausted all attempts to fend him off*.

Do NOT take this as that I’m ok with the idea of going around kissing and groping women whenever I damn well please. I’m not. I don’t. Hell, I don’t even like PDA. However when it comes big picture, a forced kiss to me is small potatoes compared to pressured sex - even reticent, belabored, consensual sex. If you want to extend this conversation to my hypothetical unborn daughter again, yes… I would much rather a lecherous old hobo give her a deep and unsolicited frenching than have her boyfriend pressure her into sex that’s not on her terms.

*Anticipated rebuttal: “The point is you CAN’T fend him off. He’s bigger/stronger than you by several orders of magnitude and that’s what makes it scary. Imagine that it wasn’t in a public bar but rather at his apartment. Alone. Having been friends for a couple of weeks. Getting tipsy. Watching a movie. Then he kisses you.”

Even in that hypervulnerable scenario I’d think that my initial reaction would still be more rage than fear. The fear wouldn’t take over until either a weapon showed up.

282

I think men come pretty well equipped with weapons they can use against me.

283

What if this has happened to you before, and you had completely exhausted all attempts? And it happened anyway? The point is, we don’t know that it will stop at kissing. We are pretty much powerless to prevent it. And many of us have had experiences where it DOESN’T stop at kissing, and we end up seriously injured.

284

Well, after reading through all these pages in both threads, I’m willing to wade in and give it an attempt, though many others have tried. I’m going to take you at your word that you are genuinely confused and want to know.

Firstly, I think it’s obvious that not everybody reacts the same way to things. The way you may react in a situation can be completely different than the way someone else may act. This may be because of their personal experiences, or it may be because of their personality, or who knows why. We’re all different. Agreed?

Secondly, you seem to understand that you would feel fear after a weapon showed up, or all attempts to fend off the attacker were futile. Until then you think you’d feel rage. When the strength disparity is wide enough that you couldn’t physically fight the attacker off - something instantly obvious - your brain can skip ahead to the futility, or the ‘weapon’ stage (where the weapons used are longer reach, heavier body, much better musculature, etc) arriving at the fear stage. When you know you couldn’t protect yourself should the person wish to do ‘X’ to you, that becomes your fear, since they’re establishing that they can do ‘Y’ to you and there’s nothing you can do about it. If they’re willing to break accepted social conduct to force hands or mouth on you, why on earth would you feel safe from them forcing a penis into you??? At that point, the data you have about this person is that they want to do things to you that you obviously don’t want AND they have demonstrated they have the ability to do things to you that you obviously don’t want AND they have actually done things to you that you obviously don’t want. All of that is rage inducing, but also fear inducing, because you don’t know what other things they are going to decide to do to you - you are not able to put a stop to it - can you see how that is scary?

I’d also like to say that it is possible to feel enraged and fearful at the same time. I have felt both in varying quantities when sexually assaulted. One time, a hand went up and started pulling down underwear. It struck fear into me, because no hand should be there (in that environment I was in), but it also brought me rage at being used like that. That time, I exploded in rage punching, kicking, screaming and had to be pulled off the attacker. I just reacted. I guess my brain calculated that I had a good chance (considering he wasn’t too muscle-bound and I was in a public place) and the rage was higher than the fear, so I went into attack-mode. I could just as easily frozen, unbelieving that it was happening, or had one of a billion other reactions, with a variety of attached emotions. I didn’t make a consciously considered response, I just reacted. Another time, my reaction was completely different. The assault went for much longer, my arms were pinned, unable to fight back, but even if I could’ve fought back I was outnumbered so it would’ve only been symbolic fighting and not actually of any use in saving myself. That time I had quite a bit of shock, then lots of fear, then the rage caught up, but being helpless and not know how it was going to turn out or when I would be free, fear was definitely the overwhelming emotion.

I’ve shared two of my experiences (one of which I’ve never spoken of before) in the hope that you may see that a reaction may be varied in that situation. It may vary based on many factors, but one factor is how vulnerable you perceive yourself to be in a given scenario. A man who is ignoring your no and who can overpower you with their strength doesn’t need a weapon to cause fear - the fact they can overpower you and have demonstrated they are ok doing that is the weapon.

And I realise I’ve just restated the rebuttal. So instead I’ll ask you: why would you feel no fear until a weapon showed up? Perhaps because when a weapon shows up you know you can’t stop the person doing whatever they want? Well, if they can overpower you with their strength and they’ve shown you they have no qualms doing that - why would they need a weapon? They are the weapon

285

Two problems:

  1. “Nothing is happening tonight” is not ambiguous at all in the situation described in the OP. She was explicit that she was not interested.

  2. To say that it was ambiguous is inherently to defend the ensuing attempts at making out.

So you’re factually incorrect about one thing, and inconsistent with yourself in a single breath.

286

Murder is worse than stabbing. So don’t get so bent out of shape when I get a little stabby.

287

Has anyone even suggested the possibility that it’s impossible for a man to rape a woman? I mean, rape implies that it’s unwanted, and who wouldn’t want to have sex with a man?

288

Men, for one. Unless you’re one of those nuts who thinks heterosexuality is a choice.

289

This is one reason I think people are getting frustrated with you. You seem to be conceptualizing this scenario as like the same thing as getting an unexpected kiss from a guy you don’t like. If you were sitting on the couch with a friend, and he kissed you, and you weren’t into him that way, it’s unlikely you would feel fear OR rage (I would hope.) But if you said, ''Hey, I don’t like you that way," and he persisted, and he tried to grab you and you moved away from him, and he followed you, ignoring all the times you said, ‘‘Stop,’’ and he kept trying to kiss you, then you would begin to be afraid. This is what happened with MOL. That’s not the same thing as a single, unwanted advance.

290

Empathy is overrated.

This was one of the major realizations of my late teens years. If someone describes their experience of a situation to me, I don’t need to understand why they have that experience. I don’t need to empathize. I need to respect.

It’s not that it’s bad to try to empathize with someone. But sometimes it’s very hard to do so. And when you can’t, that doesn’t mean you can show disrespect to their experience.

291

Or not injured. We make the choice to give in to avoid being injured. Sex is sex, it goes away - a black eye, teeth knocked out - those are serious. So sometimes, that girl playing along - she’s playing along for survival. Because having all her power stripped from her to say no and having sex is better than what her brain tells her the alternative may be - a violent rape. However, having sex with someone to avoid getting hit - that isn’t consent.

292

A brief travelogue for those of us NOT living huddled in a basement, bereft of face to face contact:

In the wonderful land known as “Outside”, the men and women out there are able to see beyond their “idols” behavior and still use some moral judgement. Because, in the world of “Outside”, everyone has more than a single person who influences them.

Also, when someone in the green and pleasant land of “Outside” is told something that contradicts their beliefs…they all react differently! Some people will take the new information and examine it and accept or reject it on it’s merits, some will trust the information giver and just accept it, and some will reject it. Yes–people who live in “Outside” don’t all think alike! (this will seem strange to dwellers in “Basement”, but it works for those people.)

Finally, before weighing in on male/female interactions in “Outside”, perhaps you, a dweller in “Basement” should have an interaction of the male/female type that doesn’t involve a porn site featuring videos of women being hypnotized , a bottle of lotion, Mrs. Rosie Palm and her 4 daughters, a box of kleenex and a lingering sense of shame and guilt. (Note, the food-giver “Mommy” does not count as a male/female interaction in this sense and only a cad would suggest otherwise.)

293

Signals that “a girl really wants it” is a Hollywood construct. It’s a common theme of teenage sex comedies and sitcoms. How old are you? Porky’s old? John Hughes old? American Pie? Superbad? The 40 Year Old Virgin? This has to be where you learned that it’s okay to steamroll a reluctant date. Or maybe you learned it from your frat brothers, who learned it from Hollywood. I guarantee your parents didn’t teach you that it’s okay to keep pushing a reluctant date for sex.

So what is your deal? Unless you’re a closeted subscriber to PUA nonsense, are resentful of the implication that you may have overstepped someone’s boundaries in the pursuit of sex, or were raised by your television, I can’t figure out why this is your sacred cow. Or maybe reluctance is such a huge turn on for you that you must rationalize and justify aggressive actions.

“Signals” that a girl likes you such as smiling, eye contact, touching or other obvious flirting, self-conscious grooming maneuvers like hair twirling, posing, etc are evident and real for all but the most romantically clueless. Once a relationships has progressed beyond “okay, she’s digging me” to physical contact, the ambiguity of signals is behind you. When it’s on, it’s on.

I mean, for Pete’s sake, either she has her hand on your dick, or she doesn’t. Either she’s leaning into you and returning your kisses, or she isn’t. If she isn’t pulling you closer, if she isn’t caressing your body, if she isn’t unzipping your fly, if she isn’t taking off her own clothes, she’s probably not as into you as you are her. Role-play aside, actual acts of consensual sex involve reciprocation. How can you tell if she’s reciprocating? Like many things: you know it when you see it. If you have any doubts about her intentions and desire or if you believe you are caught in a game of cat and mouse, you’d be wise to scrap your faulty signal reader and consider the law and your future.

294

Yeah, I’m struggling with that, too. I can’t imagine having any kind of sexual contact with someone while they are just sitting there. I mean, that’s what I have to assume is happening for men who struggle with this ‘‘signals’’ concept, because when someone grabs onto you and touches you and kisses you, that’s a pretty clear yes. If I’m wrong, and these girls are saying ‘‘no’’ but then reciprocating in this way, I’d say that’s a red flag for Team Crazy Bitch. A lot of guys on this board are concerned about being falsely accused of rape and it seems to be it would be less likely to happen if they would stay away from types like this.

Also you should check the I.D. of every woman you ever sleep with, because you have to be sure she’s not lying to you about her age. Make sure you only sleep with somebody you know really well and trust. If she’s had a drop of alcohol, don’t have sex with her.

What? I’m not blaming you for getting falsely accused of rape. It’s just common sense.

295

I think there’s also something to be said for differential socialization–guys maybe don’t feel as much fear in situations like that at the beginning because most guys are taught that they both SHOULD and CAN solve problems like this with a show of force. I know I basically assume that in the event of forcible unwanted sexual contact, I’d come out swinging–because I was taught for my entire primary/secondary school years that was one of a catalog of appropriate ways to solve problems involving physical or emotional force, and that I should never feel bad about finishing a confrontation with physical force, only for initiating same. Pretty typical rural USA macho morality.

As one of those guys, this is a lesson it only takes once to learn. Although I think there might be something to this in socialization (again), because I DO often think of it as “that’s what I get for accepting advances from someone I knew was unstable and vindictive” rather than “holy carp, she literally seduced me and then reported me for raping her.”

I don’t want this to be a hijack about false rape accusations, so much as pointing up another place where victim-blaming is internalized for myself. Which is just another reason it’s so critically important for EVERYONE to recognize and fight the social conditioning that teaches us to assume that, especially it seems in sexual matters, there’s some culpability/blame on the part of the victim.

296

This thread is disgusting and horrifying.

Every woman I know - every single woman - I can almost guarantee - has been sexually assaulted in some manner. From being kissed when she didn’t want to, to being groped, to downright rape. Men are bigger than us, stronger, and more powerful. Of course they are terrifying.

Every man I ever slept with KNEW for sure - 100% sure - that I wanted him. Some of you think it’s romantic to cop a feel or kiss a woman who doesn’t want it? It’s sexual assault and it’s disgusting and I know at least two Dopers with whom I’d never want to be alone.

297

Smelly farts?

“Mommy” has been downgraded to “That Bitch-Whore Who Dunt Know Proper Cheese.”

298

Wow, really? (Seriously, I don’t meant this out of sarcasm)

I actually find this hard to believe.

Is this really true? :eek:

299

Hmm. You should make that three — I haven’t showered in weeks, and my array of perfumes can only go so far. Olfactorily speaking it’s probably best for persons of any gender to avoid me.

300

At least being the key words here. This series of threads has basically cemented that I will never, ever go to a Dope Fest.

I can’t speak for all women everywhere, but literally everyone in my friends group has been at least grabbed at by a man-- often a stranger. If you go to a nightclub, it’s pretty much a forgone conclusion that some dude is going to cup your ass, your tit, or try to stick his finger up your dress as you’re walking by. It happens so often that most women don’t even make a big deal about it anymore, it’s just that heavily ingrained as a part of our reality.