I think the problem, Cardinal, is the inflexibility of the position. Look at the difference between these two statements:
Having sex with a goat is wrong.
I believe that having sex with a goat is wrong.
Subtle, but important, difference there. While I may disagree with Polycarp about a certain moral value he derives from a collection of Bible quotes, combined with a decently thorough and well-read contextual background (as is the case with his belief regarding Leviticus and “abominable” acts), one of the key differences between his presentation of his belief and H4e’s presentation is that he freely admits he could be wrong, whereas H4e takes anything she believes as The Ultimate Truth in Which There is no Room for Error or Other Truth.
There are several other differences, to be sure, but this is just highlighting one of them.
I’m a big fan of admitting you could be wrong. However…
I know very much the culture and teachings that H4e comes from. She hasn’t said the denomination she attends, but I can “smell” the similarities. I grew up in the straight-laced Protestant church, and I’ve only gone about one step to the side as an adult.
Here’s the thing. The teachings that she’s around, that I’m around, say that there are some things that are right, and some that are wrong. Period. Occasionally I’m in a little conflict on exactly which those are, but I do agree that there are some things that are just wrong. Don’t we all agree that, say, murder can’t be tolerated?
Anyway, I believe that some things are just wrong and immoral, but I don’t get into wild arguments around here with people about them, because the time isn’t profitable. I’d be better off playing video games than getting into those “discussions”.
If I may speak frankly, my assessment is that there is a dogma on this board just as surely as there is in H4e’s church. That dogma is that it’s ok to do almost anything you want, as long as it isn’t judged to be hurtful by the overwhelming majority of the Dopers. It becomes obvious when any unpolitically correct (to use a cliched term) moral opinion is stated here. The poster is flamed and then the ashes are scattered. I have the impression that there are some beliefs that are not acceptable here.
BTW, did H4e really say that gays are rotten at the core? Someone implied she did. I’m sorry, I’m not going to go read all five pages trying to find this. But if no exact quote is forthcoming, it bolsters my assertion that there is a lot of attacking going on here because she’s not going along with the group.
I just hit Submit to post this to a thread that seems to have vanished down the memory hole, but it could stand posting here, too.
I’m willing to cut a deal with the fundies. If they promise to stop pestering me and mine to live our lives in repression and fear, then I promise not to make them read any books that might cause them to meditate on the primacy of individual freedom in our society or to reflect that the spectrum of human sexuality is far more nuanced and complicated than their childish black-and-white-worldview permits.
And if the fundies are extra specially good, I won’t ask them to contemplate that much of the artistic and aesthetic works that have ennobled our culture, from the sonnets of Shakespeare to the songs of Cole Porter to the acting of Ian Mckellen, have come form folks who have loved in unorthodox manners.
I’m sure it would be very frightening to folks like H4E[ to meet someone like me or Andygirl and realize that we are not caricatures, but real people who wish to be left to live in peace.
Don’t tell me to go to church, and I won’t tell you to go to a library or museum.
Again, I’m not sure where the idea came for this statement:
—I’m sure it would be very frightening to folks like H4E to meet someone like me or Andygirl and realize that we are not caricatures, but real people who wish to be left to live in peace.—
Remember, I’m the one who told her to just leave it all alone, but is there actual evidence that she regards gay people as talentless or as some sort of faceless group? Does having a stong moral belief mean that she also believes these other things?
If people are going to argue, let’s at least argue against what was actually said. If you don’t like being told what to do, at least that directly addresses what she’s said as far as I can tell. Where does this other stuff come from? Is there something she’s plainly said, or is this an assumption of her attitudes?
Honestly, the difference between observable harm and “the Bible says” is all the difference in the world. If something can be observed to harm others it is wrong, otherwise it’s none of your concern. This has nothing to do with “the overwhelming majority of Dopers”, it is all about observable facts. If all you can muster is “the Bible says it’s a sin” as an argument against something, apparently it doesn’t actually harm anyone in the real world.
If you are morally opposed to something, by all means don’t do it. When you expect me to live by your rules is when you have stepped out of line.
Where we’ll disagree is whether or not things do harm.
I too get upset at the argument “The Bible said it, and that’s the end of it”. I don’t go around just clicking my heels to things out of books, not even that one. The difference is that I think there are things that do harm that you don’t. We don’t agree.
To tell the truth, I suspect that the “having sex with a goat” thing is even less harmful than a lot of things that are routinely particpated in by large portions of the population. Just because it’s gross doesn’t make it the worst thing, period. This is not a defense of the act, just an example of how I DO think that certain things cause harm.
We’re getting close to getting back into the whole argument, which is what I was trying to stop in the first place. If this is the end of it, that’s fine.
gobear, how about the fundies keep pestering you to go to church so that we can get some of your literary and artistic suggestions? (Hey, I’m in the middle of reading Mere Christianity – loving it so far.)
trudges off to the fundie library and fundie museum
It’s not so much that she believes that the specific set of people [non-heterosexuals] is talentless or faceless as that she simply does not seem to ascribe much of any value to anything that is not in her subset [people who agree with me]. It took probably two dozen of us a solid month, if not more, simply to get her to stop writing “The Bible says X, so I believe it” and start writing “I believe the Bible says X”. And she still more often than not goes back to the former. Maybe because it’s ingrained in her, I dunno. I, for one, am getting slightly fed up with devoting worthwhile brain cells and time to trying to show her a better way to reach more people here, only to have her respond solely to my disagreements with her. It’d be nice if she actually seemed to care what we said when we weren’t slapping her on the wrist or removing the highlighter from her Bible, those of us who have taken time to thoughtfully respond to her.
Hey, His4ever: I am very happy with my life, which does not include taking time every week/month/whatever to recite religious dogma. Probably even moreso, as my words and actions on this board haven’t precipitated anywhere close to the negative reaction you’ve gotten in the few months you’ve been here (and I’ve been posting with fair regularity here since June of 2000, a good two years longer than you). If I still believed the sort of things you profess to be Holy Truths, I would probably have caused serious, irreparable damage to myself by now. Had I realized certain things about myself earlier in life, I might well not be here because of some of the beliefs I held, which at the time agreed with what you now hold to be true. Strangely enough, those beliefs didn’t bring me any closer to your God than your posts do now.
Want to know what did bring me closer to God?
Wait for it…I’ll even put it in a spoiler in case you don’t want to know the answer yet.
[spoiler]love[/spolier]
Just out of curiosity, I had an acquaintance (in hindsight I wish I’d been a lot nicer to him) in high school who was gay. After graduation, he came out to his parents and was disowned and thrown out of the house. Last I heard (which was several years ago) he was working on the streets of Providence, RI as a male prostitute. His parents believed similar things to what you believe regarding sexuality. Evidently their version of the Bible didn’t include that whole “Whatever you have done to one of my children, you have done to me” passage.
So tell me … what would you have done? Gay teenager, fresh out of high school. Your family’s too poor to send him to college (as I recall; I could be wrong).
Showing God’s love isn’t about telling a person all about the rules they’re breaking and how they’re going to a certain place when they die (or by saying “this is what God says happens to people like you”, which is condemnation by association). You don’t teach a child to add by showing them lots of wrong answers. You teach a child to add by showing said child how to get the result. In that same vein, very few people are going to be drawn to any g/God(s) by being told all the ways they’re being bad (I say this a second time now). Tell them about the good things. Remember, you’re trying to sell God, not scare someone to God.
Well, first, get yourself a goat, a roll of duct tape, and a home electrolosys kit. Once you get these things, post a message with Esprix’s name in the body of the mesage and wait by the phone. I cant promise anything…
His4Ever, what bothers me most about you is your habit of saying, “Well, maybe they’re not a real Christian.” I particularly remember this happening in a thread where I asked how you knew a certain group of people didn’t go to church. You said that even if they did, they might not be real Christians. I get the impression Guinastasia and Monty, apparently, are not “real Christians” in your view because they’re Catholic and LDS respectively, and I suspect if you knew more about the Episcopal church, Polycarp and I might not make the cut, although I doubt you’d say so publicly, given my temper.
Also, there are Muslims are every bit as sure that Mohammed is God’s Prophet as you are that Christ is your Saviour. If you tell them they’re wrong, they’ll tell you the same thing. They do not believe that Christ was resurrected for our sins; instead, they believe that the Word of God was distorted which is why the Koran was given as final revelation. I’m reading The Prophet and The Messiah right now which looks at the differences and similiarities between Islam and Christianity, and it’s fascinating reading. It’s also written from a Christian perspective by an Arab.
Look, God for whatever reasons, has put me in contact with a lot of non-Christians and former Christians. A lot of them have been put of Christianity by the behaviour of other Christians. Some days, I swear I’m doing damage control. You come across as condemning people because of one aspect of their lives. That does hurt them. I would prefer to judge people by the sum of all they are, and, even then, pronouncing final judgement is not my call.
One of my oldest friends is a homosexual in a committed relationship. If you tell him he must choose between your God and his spouse, your God isn’t going to be that appealing. A friend who, along with his wife, gave me kind words and much needed hugs this weekend is Roman Catholic. In his view, he’s already saved and has no reason to change. You have broken vows sworn before God twice, whether you like it or not. You have also hurt me and come close to undoing some of the work I’ve been trying to do by your condemnatory tone. I will not insult you by calling you un-Christian. I know there is more to you than that, and I have noticed some of your other posts.
I wish you would show more mercy, even though I suspect that, like me, you haven’t been shown much mercy in your life. On the other hand, you and I have been shown the ultimate Mercy. My beliefs tell me my life should reflect that and that I should live my life in such a way that people can see why I follow Christ. Harsh words and playing the martyr won’t help that.
You have a zest for trying to help people. I can understand that and appreciate it. But please, just try to keep in mind that it is possible to cross a line… that you can come off as condescending and hurtful. If you believe that someone is living immorally, just remain content that God has his own ways of dealing with that. Unless they are out to hurt you, there’s no need to hurt them in return.
Christ preached love. He told people to love God, and to love each other. He specifically said that those are the two most important commandments. I would offer that your desire to spread God’s word has brought you to focus more on the lesser rules of the Bible - especially of the OT - and to gloss over these most important of Christ’s teachings.
My advice would be just to remain content in your beliefs. I don’t want to tell you to change anything that you believe… just how you present them. Do you think telling people “You’re going to hell” is going to convince them that God loves them? We live in a society where some homosexuals have been told that God hates them… there is an animosity there, a pain and a hurt, and you have to deal with it gingerly. You have to show them, through both your text and your subtext, that you truly believe that God loves them, that He loves everybody.
His4Ever: you wrote:
“Monty, theres never going to be an end to our disagreements.”
Well, yes, there can be.
Monty and I used to go at it, until gobear held up a mirror to me and said “Are you being like Jesus?”(paraphrased)
I realized i wasn’t.
Now, Monty and I get along because we agree to disagree.
Try it, you’ll see, he’s not a bad guy after all.
Most of us aren’t either.
Hi, vanilla. I thought I had tried to do that on several occasions. I’m willing to agree to disagree but some here seem unwilling to leave it at that. See ya.
I’m surprised that a fundie would be reading C.S. Lewis, let alone approving of the text. Lewis wrote about God’s boundless love and mercy bestowed on humanity through the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus. I was under the impressions that fundies are more about vindication of their narrow beliefs theough the condemantion of most of humanity to eternal damnation. “Well, yes, he donated money to charities, prayed regularly, forgave people who injured him, and did his best to serve God, but oops, he accepted the evidence for evolutionary biology and he actually spoke to a gay person without telling him that homosexuality is EE-vul. Off to Hell with him!”
That’s because bigotry cannot just be left to fester.
Now… do you think you can actually answer questions, such as the one I previously asked about why you always seem to come back to a thread after you’ve said you are leaving?
vanilla: The difference between us and H4E is that you and I both admit that our interpretations of scripture just might not be correct. H4E has set herself up as God Almighty. You have not. And her pronouncements about the practices and beliefs of the LDS, along with those of the RC, and also along with her pronouncements of the Gays, are uniformly incorrect. You, on the other hand, did check things out for yourself. While I disagree with the conclusions you’ve reached, I respect that you came to those conclusions by some actual research. I believe that you respect that I came to my conclusions by my actual research & checking into the matter for myself.
H4E has already established herself as a hateful liar here. That is the damage she needs to undo. I don’t mind agreeing to disagree; however, I will not stand by idly whilst someone spreads malicious lies.
(Hey, I’m in the middle of reading Mere Christianity – loving it so far.)
