Insert obligatory cross and wood-shortage joke here.
H4E’s problem isn’t one of religious belief. It’s one of semantics. Hate the sin, love the sinner? Horse ca-ca. That has always been a retarded statement. She doesn’t even see the contradiction in her words – “I’m not saying I hate homosexuals, I just think everything they are in the core of their being is disgusting … but I don’t hate them.”
She is either entirely brainwashed, stupid to an amazing degree, or has been yanking our collective chains for months. I would not be surprised at all for her next thread to be of the “Ha ha ha, you’re all such suckers for arguing with me” variety.
Well said, cjhoworth. As a (cradle, lapsed & re-verted) Catholic, I admit to coming back through a church that taught that Catholicism was wrong, evil - all of that.
As I was coming back to Catholicism, I had a friend who was horrified, who couldn’t understand why I would want to go back to a church that was so obviously wrong, in her eyes.
We argued, we debated, we got mad and quit speaking, then started the cycle all over again. We finally came to a “truce” so to speak when I asked her what it meant to be a Christian. Her response was that you accept the truth of Jesus Christ, and believe. Well, that’s true - is not all the other stuff “window dressing” (to a point, and I know it’s not how it’s always viewed by individual churches, but that is the key belief, IMO). So she deals with me as a Catholic, I deal with here as a fundamentalist, but she doesn’t judge me and I don’t judge her. We can still debate, and we do, but there’s not the undercurrent of anger anymore, but a spirit of learning from each other.
Ok, I know, there’s nothing really pit-worthy in this post, but I’m not going to throw in swear words just because.
This statement got me thinking, Jack. Is someone’s sexual preference really the “core of their being?” I’m not saying you believe this, just that you got me thinking about it.
I can only speak for myself, but sex is pretty low on the list of what defines me for me. Heck, even the fact I have a BS in mechanical engineering (got it seven years ago, never used it) is more “at the core of my being” than the fact that I like women.
Sorry for the pointless hijack, folks… I’m just thinking out loud here, so to speak. To be continued in another thread, perhaps…
On the occasion of our agreement, I feel like I should offer a toast. That argument, for me, has always sealed the deal. If a heterosexual man cannot manufacture an attraction toward other men, then his demand that a homosexual man manufacture an attraction toward women is disengenuous.
But still, what is so wrong with having a dissenting opinion? Granted, some people need to learn how to express their’s better. But why is expressing it such a heinous crime?
If I read someone saying that homosexuality is an abomination of nature, am I now compelled to go out and villify every homosexual I may encounter? No. That’s ludicrous. Their opinion is still, to me, just an opinion.
If you disagree with an opinion, post! That’s why GD and the Pit are here, right? But, be warned. Someone else may disagree just as vehemently with you and your view. Is that an attack? Or just a different world view?
Seems to me (opinion), that fundementalists are very short sighted, have a narrow world view, and too often use emotion rather than reason, logic, or facts to make their points. But then, so are/do the people who oh so predictably respond to everything they think the fundie said.
My syntax, grammar, and spelling are atrocious, I know. And this post may get me flamed, by either side. But I had to say this. And I’m glad the SDMB gives me the chance, and the choice to do so.
In a war of words, it’s the words that truly suffer.
I wholeheartedly agree that there’s no use trying to change your preferences, and thusly think anyone who tells you otherwise is a great fool. However, this is precisely the reason I don’t think it is a big part of me. I had no choice in the matter of which sex I prefer, but I did choose to go to school. Therefore, my degree is more important to me than my heterosexuality.
Anyhow, that’s a gross oversimplification, but it’s past my bedtime and I don’t want to waste all of my brilliant points here when there’s another thread to post in.
His4ever, sometimes people come to conclusions without you necessarily pointing them out. If a person comes on with a name like WhitePride or something, and starts talking about how black people are inferior to whites and all that, people are going to assume that a) he’s racist and b) he hates black people. He may not feel that he hates black people, but in effect he is doing harmful, and indeed hateful, things against them, and thus his actions speak louder than his words.
If I came up to you and said that I thought Christianity (or some other integral part of your life) was wrong, that the real God was going to torture you for eternity unless you came over to my line of thinking, and that it was disgusting and morally abhorrent, would you feel that was a loving attitude? No. In fact it’s been well proven by the way that you deal with the very accusation of being only “hateful” – let alone evil or damned – that you would not see such words in the same light that you expect from others.
Saying that something that is important and central in the life of another person is wrong is something that a lot of people are going to take issue with. You are exactly the same way. You expect acceptance here on the SDMB but you do not treat others in kind if they are gay.
I realize you are so very convinced that you are right and that indeed you believe that you have a divine mandate to tell others that they are violating the will of God himself. However, your religion teaches – just as many others do – that you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We understand your point. We’ve heard what you have to say about homosexuality. Yet, you keep repeating it. Every time you write about homosexuality, imagine being on the other side – imagine reading a thread and instead of homosexuality, it’s about Christianity. Just think, would I find this hurtful? Isn’t it hypocritical of me to ask that others accept my blatant criticism and indeed damnation of something that they find important but expect otherwise for myself?
I don’t approve of Kirkland and others like him who do insult you. Keep in mind that you are far from the only person who has been insulted on the SDMB. Kirkland insulted and verbally attacked a lot of people, myself included, for all kinds of reasons. Most of us, however, are trying to explain to you, just as I have, that what you are saying is hurtful and hateful and that you should not expect us to say differently even if it hurts your feelings.
NoClue: There’s nothing wrong with having a dissenting opinion. What’s wrong is having a completely uninformed opinion, said opinion not even one’s own.
His4Ever, in an hour or so, I’ll be meeting my best friend and her husband, A, for lunch and one of the topics will be religion since he’s going through a bit of a crisis of faith at the moment. No offense meant, but I’m glad you won’t be there. First of all, A’s Catholic. Second, he’s wondering about how God could be so cruel as to put him through a lot of the things he’s endured the past several years, including the deaths of people he loves. The depiction of God you’ve shown on this Board, cruel, capricious, quick to damn, and completely lacking in mercy, would only drive him further from his faith. Quite frankly, if that picture of God were the only one I had, it would drive me away, too.
Also, you give the impression of trying to persist in false beliefs. Notably, last week when you asked if we were sure there wasn’t evidence of a church other than what became the Catholic church during the first 1000 years of Christianity. Also, when you’re told of a Christian who disagrees with you, your first response seems to be, “Well, maybe that person’s not a Christian.” Considering that non-Christians are doomed to hellfire and damnation in your book, that’s hardly a nice thing to say.
Someone once said, “Insanity is doing the same thing the same way while expecting different results.” I’m not calling you crazy by any stretch of the imagination. What I’m suggesting is, if you want different results, do something different.
I’d like to join the list of people asking H4E to stay.
I think every time she posts about an issue she doesn’t understand, and gets called on it, any Christian reading the thread who holds the same attitudes is forced to examine them. Just because H4E can’t change her mind, doesn’t mean that no-one that holds these opinions can’t.
Also, the sheer force of “I don’t want to be like her” could force a whole lot of people out of the homophobic contingent.
I think she’s doing gay people a favor by displaying just how completely impervious to logic, reason, and compassion one has to be to persist in voicing this kind of perspective.
I disagree. Love the sin, hate the sinner is something we all do. I have a cirlce of freinds that I love like family. Some of them do things that in my own life I would consider sinful…Some of them worship other gods, I have a freind who is a buddhist, several who are pagen, atheist, odenist etc. Many of my freinds have sex outside of marraige, drink too much, vote republican, and other things I would consider sinful if I did them. These people are very dear freinds, and I would never judge or condemn them, and some of these things are a big part of their lives as well. They know I am a Christian (and an anti-republican), and they respect my beliefs in return.
People are so absorbed in sex that it defines who they are I consider boring, gay or straight, so I dont buy that who you have sex with goes to the core of your being.
doesnt prove anything. being right handed isnt important to who I am, although I would have a hard time consiously deciding to be left handed as well.
The ‘love the sin, hate the sinner’ works for people you know, sure. But what about when you apply that philosophy to an entire group, who you don’t personally know, and who are defined by what you consider to be sin?
