[QUOTE=NajaNivea]
See… this is precisely what I can’t stomach about social dating. Why does it have to be about a bunch of people acting phony around each other to try to sell themselves?
[/QUOTE]
Why are you still of the opinion that it’s about being phony? We covered that already.
Jean Gray, I know exactly what you mean about the whole education thing. So many guys act weird about it - something I found out in the course of online dating.
And I am totally on Telperien on the whole shopping thing. I will cheerfully attend boring functions if it’s going to help my SO, but shopping? I’m not going to ask him to come shoe shopping with me if he’d rather be at home grunting and watching football, and I certainly hope he doesn’t expect me to go with him and pick out chain saws when I’d rather be at home baking pies. 
Reading the replies in this thread has made me think a bit about my whole attitude towards dating and “the game.” I HATE dating as a game. It gives me a headache. I hate thinking about every next move, about when I should smile, when I should look away, when I need to give the secret handshake that means “I want to have hot monkey sex with you.” Upon reflection, I’ve never really dated much - all my relationships started off with being friends and gradually progressing to something more, and at that stage games tend to be unnecessary. I think that’s why I’ve kind of been at a standstill in regards to my dating life at this point (one of the reasons anyway) - I’ve become used to meeting guys, becoming friends, and then later developing something more on top of that friendship. The idea of getting to know someone right off the bat in terms of a potential relationship is something I’m not very comfortable with, I guess.
I think I might fall into the category of somewhat willingly single. Last summer I ended a 2-year relationship and moved from NYC to the country to be closer to my child (and, of course, closer to my ex-wife and her new husband … yippie). This increased my commute to about an hour and 15 minutes each way. I bought a cheap house that needs a lot of remodeling, which I am doing myself. I don’t really know anyone locally, so my social life is basically work and old friends who live closer to the city (and work). Last year, my mind wasn’t on dating –- I was living in a half-gutted house with one working electrical outlet, getting home late, and there didn’t seem to be much time leftover. And when a relationship ends poorly, I usually like to take some time off anyway. In the spring, I gamely went on 2 blind dates that friends had set up for me, but it was pretty clear to me that my mind was elsewhere. I guess I don’t mind being alone that much, and I’ve got plenty on my plate – it’s only seemed like a burden to me here and there, like when there’s a movie I’d like to see, or at a wedding this fall where literally every woman between 18 and 70 was part of a couple, and I was left seated with the children and elderly when everyone else got up to dance.
That said, my house is now much less the wreck it was. And I’m considering a change of job that would have me telecommuting. The obvious upside is I save the time and money spent on a long commute, getting 15-odd hours of my life back every week. The downside is that I would be in the house alone every day, so the loneliness is going to become more palpable. It’s not clear to me whether the logistics of the job are going to enable me to go to a local café with wi-fi for a few hours a day, or if that’s even going to help. So I’m probably going to be heading back to the wonderful world of Internet dating (which I realize is a much smaller supermarket up here than in NYC), and also trying to find some local groups for meeting people (there’s a lot of hiking and rock climbing groups around here in the warmer weather, and I’m a musician but I haven’t looked at the local music scene at all).
So let’s redo this thread in 6 months and I’ll see if I’m unwillingly single, and having conversations with mannequins that I’ve set up around the house.
I don’t find Internet dating the relentless pain in the ass that a lot of people here seem to – but it is certainly a lot of work. I think the main strikes against me (well, besides being 42 and, er, in the middle of the bell curve hotnesswise) are the part-time kid and ex-wife thing, which will get me crossed of a lot of lists. That and the fact that I don’t want any more kids. However, I have a strong attraction for women 5 or 10 years older than me, and really dig odd, mousy girls. I don’t think I have ridiculous expectations.
How many dates is a fair number? If you went out on 25 dates and none of them were worth a second look, you might have set the bar too high for that first date. A lot of people are very cautious on first dates, less so on the second, I’ve found.
I’ve found that people get better looking when they like you. And when they prove to be smart and funny.
And I’m not buying that anyone can be too ugly to date. Ugly people have been reproducing for thousands of years.
There was another thread of this kind of thing that I’m too lazy to look for. The upshot for me is that these rules of thumb are not necessarily universal; in fact, they may be contradictory—I’m thinking of rules about when to call after the first date in particular. Ladies, he’s not going to guess that he has to call you before 24 hours because his friends have convinced him that he has to wait 3 days or he’ll come off as desperate; I think the information that you have to arrange dates 5 days in advance comes as a surprise to a lot of guys. It’s just dumb to limit yourself like that.
[quote=SageRat]
Online services like OKCupid are predominately male, so more often then not your message doesn’t get read as girls will stop going through their messages when they’ve found a guy or two that looks promising–so unless you’re lucky enough to be at the top of the mailbox when she looks, you’re out of luck. quote]
I don’t think this is true at all -– from my conversations with female friends about this, a message with some thought put into it is very easy to separate from the millionth-cut-and-paste messages that are filling their inboxes.
I think that among men, the biggest reason for unwilling singlehood is the fear of approaching women. Even if you are an unattractive guy, if you brush your teeth, dress neatly, and approach 3 or 4 women a day, there is a good chance that eventually you will hit one who will be willing to go out with you/be your girlfriend/have sex with you/marry you.
I suppose that such a strategy is unworkable if you live in a small town in the middle of nowhere.
Also, going out and picking up girls is a lot less romantic than waiting for that special someone to wander along; obsessing over her for months; finally asking her out; and (if you are extremely lucky) finding out that she’s hot for you too. There’s something incredibly intense about having a crush on somebody and wondering how she feels about you.
[QUOTE=HazelNutCoffee]
Upon reflection, I’ve never really dated much - all my relationships started off with being friends and gradually progressing to something more, and at that stage games tend to be unnecessary. I think that’s why I’ve kind of been at a standstill in regards to my dating life at this point (one of the reasons anyway) - I’ve become used to meeting guys, becoming friends, and then later developing something more on top of that friendship.
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s a common experience that this gets harder as you get older. The number of single people in their 40s and 50s is just much smaller. It’s not that uncommon to find yourself in social situations where everyone else is in a couple. I find that most of my socializing is with my friends who are currently single, male and female. Thus, to meet people requires concerted effort of one kind or another – many people just give up, as is clear from this thread.
Hmm…willingly single. Interesting question.
I’m in a rather odd place on it. I look at some of the things people who are in relationships do together, and think “I want that”. Then I look at what I’d have to change about myself in order to get it, and go “it’s not worth it”.
Number one, I’d have to find new interests that put me in contact with people.
Number two, I went on a trip, yes, but what did I do there? Well, A, B, and C happened. I didn’t do anything…I was just there. People tend to get bored by those kinds of stories, so I would need to change how I think about events. (in order to change how I talk about them)
Number three, I’d have to figure out how to make an emotional connection with someone. This is only important if I want a long-term relationship, though.
And number four, I’d have to change my sense of humor. People who don’t know me think I’m serious when I’m joking, and I tend to make jokes at my own expense, or play along with someone. Oh, I can’t sit here? Sorry, <move to sit on table> <they think I believed them, because I moved>
So…where does that leave me? Unwilling to make the changes I’d have to make to be not-single, I suppose. Or waiting around until I run into someone who happens to fit with who I am currently…which is highly unlikely.
[QUOTE=Belrix]
I’m in a city of three-million people. That numbers alone worked in my favor, I’m sure.
[/QUOTE]
You don’t just live in a big city (if it’s the one in your location), you live in a big city rated the best for meeting other singles across the country. It was named by Forbes to be the best city for singles in 2004. And I doubt it has changed much since then.
I’ve also read in another publication that I can’t find, that it has the most active singles that are middle-aged. And it has to do with the proximity to active outdoor sports which require some money (like skiing) and Denver has/had a growing economy at the time.
So yeah, you had a LOT going in your favor. Are you suggesting that all the unwilling singles move to Denver?
[QUOTE=Jean Gray]
it’s just not true that women ignore all but one or two messages, or that they’ll just glom onto the first messages they get.
[/QUOTE]
To be certain, I’m sure I’m exagerating (and will continue to do so in this post.) But I was talking more about turn-over time than whether women are actually checking everything in their box. It’s unlikely that a person will continue to check out their dating site mail after they’ve found someone to go out with, which can probably happen pretty fast when you receive 40-60 messages within 24 hours of joining and the number holds every day for a week. While as, going by a previous thread we had here, guys won’t probably get a response until a good 6 months after they join, if they keep at it every day.
(And please note that you can check me out right now on OKCupid as TheSageRat. We’re open 24 hours and if you check now, you have a chance to co-adopt a free whippet puppy! Comments and Suggestions appreciated. music jingle)
[QUOTE=Yag Rannavach]
So…where does that leave me? Unwilling to make the changes I’d have to make to be not-single, I suppose.
[/QUOTE]
If that’s the choice you can be happy with, then more power to you.
But I’m always surprised when I hear people say that they are unwilling to make changes in themselves. I’ve found that making little changes in myself can have profound and rewarding effects. I look back on some changes I’ve made as some of the best turning points in my life. I wouldn’t take them back for anything.
And they weren’t things that changed fundamentally who I am. (Or did they? Oooohhh…) I still do the things I’ve always liked doing. I still don’t do stuff I absolutely hate. I’m still me, just a better version of me. Am I at my very best right now? No. But it’s a work in progress.
And really, the things that need to be done aren’t really show-stoppers. No need for a $300,000 sports car, intensive psychotherapy, and a move to Denver. A few minor things you might have to do:
-Get your mom to stop cutting your hair
-Learn to invoke a talkative state
-Gather a few interesting stories (gee, wouldn’t it be great if there were a website where interesting stories are posted every day?)
-Get out of the house once in a while
-Practice acting confidently
-Smile. At everyone.
-Get out of yourself and say hello to strangers
-Learn to make people laugh
-Get used to touching people you talk to (appropriately, please!)
-Stop wanting things from people. Stop trying to impress.
-Have fun
That last one is really important. If you go out on a date with the intention of finding a life-mate or sex partner, you’ll skeeze the person out. Just make sure that you enjoy yourself. Most likely the other person will fall in line and have a good time too. That’s sexy. And even if it doesn’t work out, you had a good time, right?
I can’t imagine wanting to marry a 47 year old woman, even if I was older than that. Nothing against 47 year old women, and there are some 47 year old women who are attractive that I would date if I was single (I’m 35 and I’ve dated women as old as 42), but I would not want a lifelong committment to someone who is going to be an old lady in a decade or so.
I have been unwillingly single for most of my adult life. For a long time, I was just socially immature and had very low self-esteem and an inaccurate view of my appearance. I thought I was fat and ugly, in fact I was only a few pounds heavy for my height and fairly good looking. There were attractive women who were interested in me, but I didn’t know how to recognize that and they ended up thinking I wasn’t interested in them. I also had very high standards, appearance-wise, and the few women who made ther intentions clearly known to me weren’t pretty enough for me and I turned them down. When I did start dating in my early 20s, my first real relationship was with a woman I was very incompatible with that I met on the internet (she was also 10 years older than me, which I had mixed up feelings about at the time). It turned me off to “real” relationships and for a long while I specifically sought out women who I knew didn’t want a long-term relationship for my physical needs. When I did develop feelings for these types of women, I was always let down because they were the promiscuous type (the reason I was drawn to them in the first place).
In my late 20s a switch flipped in my brain and I decided I wanted to get married, and less than a year later I found a woman who wanted to marry me. It didn’t work out, but after she left me I had no problems with dating and had a girlfriend pretty much continuously until I got with my current wife, who I’m fairly happy with.
[QUOTE=Quartz]
How many people here will date someone who can’t make you laugh? Zero, I’ll bet.
[/QUOTE]
People are individuals. The thing that one person considers a total deal-breaker in a relationship may be a huge turn on to someone else.
Some women do enjoy funny guys - but there are other girls out there who would view such guys as being too goofy or immature to bother dating. These women would love to find a serious, mature guy.
Whatever trait you have, there are most likely some people of your preferred sex that share that trait too and would be happy to find someone else with it. 
The only way to find out if someone likes you and wants to be with you is by putting yourself out there and seeing what happens.
If you’re sure you’re going to fail before you even try it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
[QUOTE=lavenderviolet]
I think it is much easier for middle-aged men than it is for women that age.
Men have an unfortunate tendency to die more than women do, so the demand for eligible bachelors outnumbers the supply of them as the population ages.
Plus men also tend to try to get with females younger than themselves (as a 20-something female on an online dating site, I’ve lost count of the number of guys 20+ years older who have approached me on there), so it is even harder if a 40-something gal wants a guy her own age and isn’t interested in having an elderly boyfriend.
snip.
[/QUOTE]
Amen. I could have had any number of quite elderly boyfriends by now if I were attracted to men TWICE my age (42).
[QUOTE=brazil84]
…going out and picking up girls is a lot less romantic than waiting for that special someone to wander along; obsessing over her for months; finally asking her out; and (if you are extremely lucky) finding out that she’s hot for you too.
[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, romance doesn’t work. Like many other things in life, it is too good to be true unless (as you say) you’re extremely lucky.
Dating in general is a losing proposition. You don’t get anywhere unless you can give it 100% while expecting 0%. But once you admit that and face the essential, existential futility of it, you have a chance at finding someone.
[QUOTE=Telperien]
Let me get this straight. My (prospective) spouse doesn’t want to go shoe shopping with me. So I am supposed to force him to go? What am I, his mother?
[/QUOTE]
Alright, let me phrase this another way. You are at some sort of function or event or whatever and you see an attractive woman standing there by herself. You think you might be interested in her, so what do you do?
Chances are, if you just go up and say “Can I have your number so I can call you sometime” she will say “no” or give you a phoney number. Why? Because she has no idea who the fuck you are.
I’m not advocating you not be you, but there are certain steps that need to happen between A) you see a girl and B) it’s time to get it on. Also, there are subltle clues to whether she is interested or not. These will tell you if you should back off, say something charming to generate interest or make your move. I know too many guys who miss these cues and they either come accross as wierd and creepy or they miss oportunities.
Another thing is that often attraction (or repulsion) happens when you don’t even know it. You’re in a room, people see you. They have made judgements about your appearance and mannarisms and behavior before you have even said anything. If you are the weird guy sitting by himself in the corner or the sloppy drunk buffoon, chancing are you may have blown your chances before you open your mouth.
Although I’m not currently single, I have had long stretches of being single, and unwillingly so. I’m definately not ugly by any means, perhaps not a perfect 10, but a solid 7.5 for sure. I think the reasons I had been single were due to my opinions and mannerisms. I used to be a little bit hot headed, and when presenting an opinion, I would get a little bit heated about it. I’m not saying I was freaking out or anything, but the way in which i would express an opinion was a little aggressive. Another reason being, I’m an athiest. You’d be suprised at how many women are turned off by that. I remember being on a first date one time, and the girl I was on a date with seemed quite interested in me. The subject came up, and I mentioned that I was an athiest. Her interested smile instantly went from that, to an “Oh. Alright then…” type of body language. Despite the fact that I had made damn sure I didn’t present my opinion aggressively, and she wasn’t even really a particularly religious person, I still got judged based on my belief.
Let’s see, what other reasons have I found myself rejected from… Confidence was huge until I was about 24. I was NOT a confident person before that (I am now 27). Any woman will tell you that you don’t need to be good looking to get women if you are confident. It is the single most attractive trait a man can possess. I think a VERY big part of that lack of confidence was my childhood. I was beat up every recess, and tortured all day, every day at school until about grade 9. Grade 9 I was just ignored, which allowed me to start learning the social skills I needed to know in order to become “average”. Even by the time I reached college, I wasn’t quite “above the rim” socially. People liked me, but I didn’t quite have the social skills to “pick up” women at bars like my roommates did. Going home every night from the bar alone, while my roommates, every single night, brought someone home, was a huge blow to my ego. It wasn’t until I completed college for the first time, and (finally) met someone that liked me that I finally experienced my first true relationship situation. Now, this was an absolute HORROR of a relationship, as she was psychologically abusive to me, and although not hideous looking, she wasn’t exactly “hot” either (not that that should be of huge importance). She was a lying, cheating, generally abusive person. That lasted almost a year, and when I left that relationship was when I started to gain a little bit of confidence. By this time, I was 23 i believe. Almost immediately after that, I started meeting women and actually “getting laid” at a frequency that made me realize that I’m certainly not single because of my looks. That’s when the real process of learning what women like and want, and more importantly, what I wanted, began. Over the last 4 years, I’ve dated a few women, had a couple of relationships, and learned a little bit from each one. I’ve gotten to a point now, where I’m dating a drop-dead-gorgeous 33 year old woman (yes, 6 years older than me, but trust me, she does NOT look it), who I am quite happy with. If things went south with this one, although I would be sad, I would take many positives from it. Each woman I’ve dated has taught me something important about the opposite sex that is very important, about what to do, what not to do, and how to behave, and most importantly, what I want in a woman.
I notice as the years have gone on, I have had opportunities to date women that are “hot”, that I have shot down, as they have certain personality traits about them, or are at certain points in their lives that make them incompatible with me. This NEVER would have happened when I was 20 y/o. I would have thought “wow! a hot girl likes me!” and I would have went full throttle after her. The reasons I was single for long stretches before, are not even close to the same reasons I have had stretches of being single more recently. Now it’s not so much a question of confidence, it’s more a question of meeting women that I’m compatible with. If I’m not compatible with someone, I simply accept it, and move on. If they show personality traits, like being a liar, or are in any way a bad person, I move on without even thinking twice. I am picky, and I have every reason in the world to be picky, as I have a great job, I look good, and I’m a really good person all around. Fact is, I’m simply an amazing catch, and I refuse to ever believe otherwise.
Fact is, most people need to go through a couple of bad relationships to discover what they like/don’t like, and to learn how to have a successful relationship. Other people have stretches of being single for very long periods, sometimes by choice, and sometimes not. Even when it’s not by choice, it really is by choice sub-conciously. This is a good thing however, not a bad thing. You wait for the right person to come along and then you hang on to that person for as long as it takes to find out if they are “the one”. If they aren’t, then you move on with your chin up. If they are, then consider yourself lucky, and put the effort in to make it a successful relationship. The absolute worst thing you can do to yourself is to put yourself in a relationship with someone that you don’t truly like/love. Noone should ever get into a relationship solely for the sake of being in one. A good relationship really shouldn’t require TOO much effort.
Anyways, this post is getting very long winded. I’ll finish by saying that the only thing you have to do to find that person is to get out there and meet members of the opposite sex, and TALK to them, and look deep to find out what they are really like. KNOW what you want, (and please, be realistic) and find it. When you do find that person, you may or may not be what THEY are looking for, if you aren’t, accept it and move on as soon as possible. Don’t try to change who you are. Don’t waste your time. Just pick up the pieces and move onto the next person. If you do this, you WILL eventually find that person. It may take months, or years, but being patient is key. You will end up in many short relationships, because that is what it may take to find out they aren’t what you’re looking for or vice versa, but you will eventually find “the one”.
Confident people talking about confidence are always so damn simplistic about it. Like it’s the most obvious thing in the world to understand. I guess Red just woke up with it one day, the way you would with the chicken pox.
Could it be true that the more you try to understand confidence, the less chance you have of finding it? Is it the stuff that kept Wile E. Coyote suspended in midair - the moment you turn your thoughts to it, poof it fails and you’re on your way down?
Any of you guys read Unhooked Generation: The Truth About Why We’re Still Single? It’s been a while since I read it, but it seems relevant to this thread somehow 
.
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug]
Could it be true that the more you try to understand confidence, the less chance you have of finding it? Is it the stuff that kept Wile E. Coyote suspended in midair - the moment you turn your thoughts to it, poof it fails and you’re on your way down?
[/QUOTE]
No. Confidence comes from falling down 100 times and getting back up each time. Think about the things you do in life with confidence: when you first learned them, you screwed up many times, no? How many times do you think you screwed up when you first learned to walk and talk? Probably a thousand times. The only difference between that and picking up girls is that when you learned how to walk and talk, you were so young that you didn’t have any sense of shame or self-doubt. You just kept trying until you got things right.
There’s a saying that a would-be writer needs to write 100,000 words and then throw them away.
This is not a thread on how to pick up girls, but in my opinion, the most important prerequesite to becoming a pick-up artist is that you need to hit on face-to-face and be rejected by 500 to 1000 girls.
[QUOTE=tdn]
-Get your mom to stop cutting your hair
-Learn to invoke a talkative state
-Gather a few interesting stories (gee, wouldn’t it be great if there were a website where interesting stories are posted every day?)
-Get out of the house once in a while
-Practice acting confidently
-Smile. At everyone.
-Get out of yourself and say hello to strangers
-Learn to make people laugh
-Get used to touching people you talk to (appropriately, please!)
-Stop wanting things from people. Stop trying to impress.
-Have fun
[/QUOTE]
If these were to me:
my mom doesn’t cut my hair ;), I get it cut at a salon-type place…costs about $20.
I have to know that the other person has something interesting to say before I can invoke a talkative state…no point talking to them otherwise.
I don’t need more interesting stories, I need to be able to tell them interestingly. I have quite a few stories I could tell, but they’re all boring in a “You’re not talking about yourself” kind of way.
I leave the house to go to work. 
Actually, I do other things too, but I haven’t met anyone I’d call anything close to a friend through them.
Could you give a better description of what acting confidently means?
Making people laugh in general is a problem, since it would require me to make a major change to my sense of humor.
I’m not needy, nor looking to impress. That’s something else I’d have to change…I would have to start wanting/needing something from another person. I think this partly falls under ‘learn how to make emotional connections’.
That last one is my biggest problem. I don’t find interacting with random strangers fun. Not even a little bit…and it doesn’t matter what they’re saying. It only becomes fun once I’m doing some other activity that I think is fun. For example, talking to someone in a bookstore is boring. Talking to someone while I’m trying to pick out a book is more interesting. (not interesting yet, but it’s an example)
Anyway though, I’ve done the minor things that I’d have to do to have a girlfriend. The only things that are left are the major personality altering changes, which I’m not currently willing to make for the sake having a relationship.
She isn’t potentially interesting until I hear her ideas on something. Her level of attractiveness has nothing to do with whether or not I’m interested in talking with her. If, for some reason, I thought she was interesting, I’d go up and talk to her about whatever I thought made her interesting.
[QUOTE=brazil84]
No. Confidence comes from falling down 100 times and getting back up each time. Think about the things you do in life with confidence: when you first learned them, you screwed up many times, no? How many times do you think you screwed up when you first learned to walk and talk? Probably a thousand times. The only difference between that and picking up girls is that when you learned how to walk and talk, you were so young that you didn’t have any sense of shame or self-doubt. You just kept trying until you got things right.
There’s a saying that a would-be writer needs to write 100,000 words and then throw them away.
This is not a thread on how to pick up girls, but in my opinion, the most important prerequesite to becoming a pick-up artist is that you need to hit on face-to-face and be rejected by 500 to 1000 girls.
[/QUOTE]
Interesting. I never thought of it that way before. But that’s exactly what Charles Bonifacio, a former art teacher of mine, said about drawing: “You have a hundred thousand bad drawings in you. Draw constantly, and get them out of the way as fast as you can, and then you’ll have practiced enough to get good at it.” Amazing man. Had the greatest sense of inner peace of any man I’ve ever met.