Was excessive force used?

A simple question. Did the Iraeli use excessive force when retaliating for the suicide bombings? did they have any choice? what else can they do to defend themselves? Why is pepperoni so DAMN tasty? Should they consider more first? would they be justified in the creation of internment camps for their palestinian populations? How else could they possibly be safe from the suicide bombers?

((sorry abou tthe pepperoni thing, i just had a pizza))

What do YOU think? Tell us, and then we’ll have the makings of a debate.

Otherwise, your OP is just a questionnaire.

I choose (a) they should definitely consider more pepperoni. Pizza first, then peace talks.


Questions answered in roughly the order they were posed.

I believe that any retaliation is excessive. Let’s use a little analogy here: Say a black man, representing an organization we’ll call Stop Killing Black People You Dorks (SKBPYD), covered himself in explosives and blew himself up in a predominantely white secion of, say, Seattle, to protest police killings of black men. If the government response was to march into a predominantely black part of, say, LA and bulldoze housing projects in the middle of the night because they might theoretically contain members of the Evil SKBPYD Terrorist Group, then I think that most people would consider that excessive.

Israel had every choice in the matter. Actions of this type do nothing to stop terrorism, they just make little kids say “Ya know, the Israelis bulldozed my house in the middle of the night while we were all asleep, killing my parents. I think I’m gonna go kill some Israelis when I grow up.” Can we say counter-productive? I knew we could.

Yes. Pepperoni is yummy.

More invasions of Palestinian areas would be bad, as explained above.

Internment camps would be a very bad thing. Besides being a massive violation of human rights, I couldn’t trust the Israeli government to manage the necessities of life of a group of people that many want dead. While I think and hope that the Israeli government isn’t evil enough to operate outright deathcamps, but I’ll bet that aid distribution and sanitation/health issues will make the camps hell on earth for the occupants.

The safety of the Israeli populace from suicide bombers could be secured by Israel eliminating the need for attacks to exist. Restoring to the palestinians basic human rights (including the freedom to travel), the removal of Israeli military from palestinian areas, the removal of settlers, and a continuous peace negotiation between the leadership of both countries would help to accomplish this goal. Israel will need to invest HEAVILY in the palestinian people, namely rebuilding infrastructure and schools. However, in the short term, the best that Israel can do is pull all forces out of palestinian areas and commit to giving the Palestinians a fair shake, with immediate, intense peace negotiations that DON’T STOP, even if further terrorist attacks occur. Of course, none of that will happen until the leadership of Israel is replaced with some good, moderate people who actually desire peace.

They can’t. It’s not kosher. :slight_smile: (Nor the islamic equivalent, the name of which I’ve forgotten atm. Hallal? Something like that anyway.)

I think they have used excessive force, and it hasn’t achieved a great deal. OTOH I can understand why htey have done so - Where I in their situation I must admit I would probably support their actions to at least some extent. That doesn’t mean I think it’s right though… I can’t think of a way for them to be safe from suicide bombers, especially not one that they’d be willing to implement. I wish I could.

As to why pepperoni is so tasty, I’ll leave that to someone who isn’t a vegetarian. :slight_smile: I never liked it much before hand anyway.

Fox Moxin wrote:
**A simple question. Did the Iraeli use excessive force when retaliating for the suicide bombings? did they have any choice? what else can they do to defend themselves? Why is pepperoni so DAMN tasty? Should they consider more first? would they be justified in the creation of internment camps for their palestinian populations? How else could they possibly be safe from the suicide bombers? **

I am going to avoid the “excessive” question, because that needs a lot of explaining on what “excessive” means, and I don’t have enough time. As far as their choice. Uh, it is pretty easy to argue that there was more than one choice of action in this (or any) situation. The way they handled it is the same way the US handles shit- affecting the symptoms but not the cause. Why do Palestinians bomb Israelis? That is the question that should be asked, and steps should be taken to act on the answers that come from that. In this particular situation equal water rights in the settlements and the end of military occupation is a good start.

Pepperoni is tasty to fat pig-dog Americans (no offense to you personally of course) because it comes from all the unwanted body parts of brutally treated pigs in factory farms. Mmm…taste those assholes!

Internment camps? For people living on the land for centuries? A little Hitleresque don’t you think?

They can avoid being bombed by being fair to the Palestinians. Give them some land, stop occupying them and bulldozing houses and killing civilians. Give them equal water rights, and let them have some say in government.

Not much to ask, I don’t think. Treating them as people…

ani ohev h’yam h’yehudim,
aval ani lo ohev Israel acshav.

by the way, to answer another poster’s question: the word you are looking for is Halal. this is basically anything that is in accordance with Islam. it includes not eating meat unless it is prepared properly. pepperoni, because of its shady manufacturing process, is definitely not Halal. And it is not kosher of course because it is pork.


What if you had proof that SKBPYD was based out of that neighborhood and once you went in there to find wanted criminals, who you had reason to believe were there, was met with armed resistance and you felt you had to deprive the resistance of killing grounds to complete your task.

That does happen to be what Isreal claims. So based upon you analogy you think it is excessive if they indescriminately attack Palistinians for no reason. I agree. They claim they have reason, and proof.

I personally have not seen that proof, but if they did have it I would not say it was excessive. Although I think that there are other means to achieve the same goal that does not bring the biased condemnation, but as a soverign nation they have every right to protect their citizens without the leave of the international community.

I just wanted to clarify that by internment camps i meant the type the US used on japanese americans. i don’t mean death camps here. And i don’t neccesairly support this idea. Personally, i’m thinking forced exodus. they haven’t resettled because they didnt WANT to ressetle. The yemin Camp has existed for almost fifty years. There’s no reason for that other than stubborness.

And how about Bacon? Why is bacon so damn tasty too?

Saen: If they had proof that there were terrorists there, then the proper response is to go in and arrest the terrorists. Also, I’ll point out that armed resistance doesn’t provide evidence of terrorist presence. Shooting/bombing civillians is terrorism, shooting soldiers is war.

Fox_Moxin: That’s still a violation of human rights. The palestinians have the right to live wherever or do whatever they please in their territory. It’s none of Israel’s concern, and Israel has no right to interfere.

How will they go in and arrest them if armed civilians try to stop them? Wich you just said that shooting civilians was terrorism. Considering the Palistinians do not have an army, I guess that any action towards them whatsoever, including attempting to arrest terrorists, is terrorism? Or are you saying that they should send policeman in there to attempt to arrest them for suspicion? What jurisdiction do they have for that? I do believe they asked th PA to do that very thing and they either refuse or have a revolving door policy even towards the Hamas terrorists.

Actually, during the period in which Arafat was under siege in Ramallah, and immediately following the operations in Jenin, the suicide bombings did stop. Apparently, just for a moment, the Palestinians realized that maybe, just maybe, the Israelis were done fucking around. Notice that, practically the moment Arafat was free, there was another suicide bombing.

Right. By disappearing from the face of the Earth. That’s what the Palestinians want, after all.

You are absloutely correct that that isn’t evidence. But can you tell me what kind of evidence - evidence - evidence - evidence - evidence (and there are thousands of links if this isn’t enough) would be suitable for someone like you to think there may be terrorsts in the territories.

Also just wanted to confirm if youy were saying that because the Palistinians are shooting soldiers they are justified in a war, while because the Isreali soldiers are shooting back at civilians they are considered terrorists?

Excessive? No, excessive would have been bombing of the towns from hi-tech aircraft, so no Israeli soldiers got killed. If a few hundred innocent civilians get killed, well, that’s collateral damage. They can always compensate the families later.

Hey, wait a minute…

Aside: The deal on the Jenin “massacre”

In order of most recently posted replies, kinda.

Saen: I’m not denying the existance of terrorists. I’m simply saying that the destruction of houses in the middle of the night does nothing to deal with them. Sure, you MIGHT eliminate a place where terrorists lived or were doing stuff, but you also kill or displace civillians. Bulldozing a neighborhood isn’t “fighting terrorism.” And just to be clear, Israeli soldiers may shoot at those shooting at them. Shooting at people NOT shooting at them, as with destroying their homes, is terrorism.

pldennison: To use your own logic on you, Israeli military incursions would stop if the Palestinians magically all died simultaneously one day. “It is what the Israelis want, after all.”

Saen: Obviously, every time you send military forces in, you run the possibility of casualties. That would be why they call it a WAR. Send military forces in to arrest a terrorist, and shoot back at the people shooting you. Again, marching in during the middle of the night to bulldoze a residential neighborhood doesn’t really seem like an effective method of identifying and arresting terrorists to me.


Do you see how biased your rhetoric sounds?

and again

IIRC, the IDF was in Jenin for more than a week. You make it look like they snuck in one night and bulldozed an entire neighborhood while everyone was alseep. And IIRC, Isreal claims that those houses had armed people inside shooting at them, or was booby trapped. You can refute that all you want, but don’t ignore it. I have not seen any evidence at all denying those claims either. And if it was just wanton distruction, why are there still houses standing amid the rubble and just one area that was “bulldozed in the middle of the night.”?

Really and how would you do it, assuming your an expert at these things and was on the ground and know the whole situation the Isrealis were facing.

You know what I see? I see claims of 500+ civilian deaths in the “massacre”, While the Palastinian news can only say that they cannot put up a death count because there may be bodies in the rubble. Give me a break, No matter how outlandish our estimates got (up to 20,000) in the WTC attacks will still had a daily death toll listed. I see footage of “funurals” where , after being dropped, the corpse gets up and runs away.

The Isrealis claim a bit over 50 deaths, The ONLY numbered death count I have seen by an Islamic paper says a bit over 70 so far. They also claim 23 Isreali soldier deaths, (wich can easily be proven false but never even refuted by anyone I know of) and you do not get that many deaths by just “marching into a neighborhood in the middle of the night to bulldoze it.”

And I love how you categorize the deaths of Isreali sodliers as war, but the deaths of non soldiers as terrorism. I guess in WWII the bombings of London and Berlin where nothing but terrorism also. Or was that WAR? I forget how you categorize the stuff.

I thaught you called it terrorism?


Again, is that terorism, or war, or your effective, uncategorized method?

You know what else I find funny? Every time a Palistinian is killed it is compared to the Isreali citizens killed. Those 70+ i meantioned just said “Palistinians”, assuming innocent Palistinians. Like not one where armed shooters or wanted terrorists or those protecting them. I can say for a fact that every time a bomb goes off in an Isreali pub or resteraunt that not one of them were shooting at the Palistinians.

I heard the “story” of the Palistinian child, sick in bed, and the house being bulldozed on top of him. If it was true, I condemn that child’s suffering or death and those responsible. I blame the leaders of his people for that. If the PA would arrest the terrorists, stop teaching their children to praise the actions of the terrorists, calling those that bomb innocent civilians martyrs, and stop teaching hatred against Isreal, then things would be different. At that point I would condemn Isreal for everyhting they are doing.

I also see the headlines “April 27: Adora, Palestinian gunmen enter residential quarters shooting everyone, including a 5-year-old girl shot through the head in her bed.” I do not blame her leaders. Because “occupation”, “humiliation”, war, whatever you want to blame Isreal for, never ever justifies the act of deliberate targeting and murder of that young child.

If you do not see the difference of the two, one being an act of war and “collateral damage”, and the other being the target and act of cold blooded murder, then I don’t think we would agree on hardly anything. If you have proof, or reasonable evidence that the soldiers deliberately killed that child specifically then I would say there was no difference.

And I will also admit that with what is happening and the “personal” aspect of it then there will be some war crimes and attrocities on both sides of it. Some person who lost a child or spouse or another loved one may take sadistic pleasure in killing another who represents those that had done him wrong. In every “war” that happens and will always happen. That is one reason why war is always wrong. But I do not see the UN or anyone else for that matter jumping in and protecting the civilians, so I do not see as Israel has any other choice.

Fox_Moxin wrote, in the OP:


They put common black pepper in pepperoni. (Hence its name.) That’s what gives the flavor that little slow oomph of heat.

Forced exodus is something Hitler was about as well. And the Japanese American internment camps were not pretty, legal (in the constitutional sense), or easy for its prisoners.

Being treated like you are less than human or less than a citizen is the final step before being slaughtered. Say it loud, say it proud: Palestinians do have a right to be there. I don’t see this as black and white, with Israelis as the bad guys and Palestinians as the good guys. It is far from that. But Palestinians should have the rights to live as human beings (as Israelis themselves have been able to live in Israel since 48).

And bacon tastes good to pigdog Americans for the same reason as pepperoni. Mmmmm…brutalized.