Any woman who is not one man away from welfare.
Even though I’ve got me a Y chromosome, I’d like to throw a couple pennies here.
First, I don’t think that an independent woman must, by necessity, be earning her own wage, merely making her own choices (even if they’re in accord with somone else’s; as long as she’s the one choosing to work in concert with someone else rather than being forced).
Surely a woman can, for instance, be independent and choose of her own free will to stay home from work and raise her kids? I can’t put it into words, but linking anybody’s independence, as a character trait, to their wage earning seems wrong.
Yes, independence in the sense of not requiring anything other than your own work to survive is a form of non-dependence, but even that seems somewhat less than ideal as a definition. I mean, surely an independent woman who earns her own money couldn’t, for instance, also grow her own food, make her own medicine, build her own house, etc… there’s simply not enough time to learn and carry out all those skills. Nobody who lives in a society is truely independant in that manner.
I think that, perhaps, an independant woman would be one who has her own mind, emotions, goals, desires, dreams, etc… and is not ashamed or mincing about it. Again it’s hard for me to put into words… it’s a look in a woman’s eyes, how she carries herself (Herbert’s Bene Gesserit translates to ‘she who holds herself well’, if I remember correctly).
It just seems hard to define exactly what an independent woman is, because that sort of definition would rob her of her individuality and independence. If a woman chose, out of her own free will, to be a prostitute, or a school teacher, or a homemaker, or a CEO, wouldn’t those all be independent choices?
What’s an independant man? Answer that question, and you’ll have the answer to the OP.
It seems to me that the people who want to detach financial independence from the term are operating under the assumption that not being an independent woman is a bad thing. I see the term as neutral; it is neither good nor bad. It’s just another way to describe someone.
I would guess that it is a result of the media stereotype of an “independent woman” being completely flakey and self absorbed workaholic. Often as a reaction to being dumped. Another phenomenon is the ‘have it all’ woman who wants both the high powered career and the family. Really it’s just the career with the family being accessories like DVD players or a cars.
That’s an interesting phenomenon that I had never seen before until I started working in a law firm. It’s quite an eye-opener, that’s for sure.
One question: in your world, msmith537, are there any “good” women? any admirable women?
UrbanChic, if you work at a law firm, you will agree that the phenomenon of family as accessory is not a female thing, but cuts across gender lines.
N.B. to Anaamika: you called it.
It sure does. I’ve never seen so many women, however, have such a lifestyle.
I take issue with this. She didn’t call anything. She polluted this thread with baggage in the form of an emotional outburst. What she said should have been posted in the pit thread relating to him. It was highly annoying to read it here.
What makes you think that a woman who is a workaholic became that way as a result of being dumped? Not everything a woman does is a reaction to something a man does to her. And yes, I noticed you said “Often” and not “Always”, but that’s still to broad of a generalization.
Maybe single workaholic women enjoy their jobs and don’t have time for a man, much less a family. Maybe they enjoy the fast pace, the money, the status. In other words, the same reasons that single men become workaholics. Would you say that a man becomes a workaholic because he was dumped by a woman?
I think that some of you came into this thread with too much emotional baggage (or just plain msmith537 baggage), and you’re not bothering to read what has actually been written:
Did you both miss the “this is the media stereotype” part of his post?
I’m no msmith537 apologist: I’ve certainly disagreed with his views on women in the past, though not publically. But he seems to be on good behaviour in this thread, asking a question that I think is a good one, raising an interesting point about how TV and movies tend to portray “independent” women. I’ve seen nothing to justify these knee-jerk reactions. Are we not able to have a rational discussion about this subject just because msmith537 is the one who brought it up?
I interpreted the sentences quoted above to mean that the media stereotype came about as a result of someone being dumped. Some guys got dumped by self-confident women who decided not to be with these guys. The guys then got sour grapes attitudes (“well, she’s just a flaky, self-absorbed workaholic, anyway!”) in defense. Those attitudes made it into movies, TV shows, etc. and gave us the stereotype msmith537 mentioned.
Quite frankly I’m a little confused by the hostility being shown by a few bad apples.
It might be the fact that I utterly hate every job I ever had, but I generally think that people (men or women) who become workaholics (or any other kind of 'holic for that matter) are generally trying to fill some void in their life.
It’s different for men though. Men often pursue a high-powered career for the purpose of attracting women (as well as the other trappings of power and money). For women, I have often heard that they find having a successful career can hurt their dating prospects. Men don’t necessarily equate success with sex appeal in women to the extend that women do. Not that women are all after rich guys, but women do seem to be attracted to men who excel in their particular discipline - art, sports, music, business, whathaveyou.
Which leads me to another issue - The inability of ‘successful independent women’ to find a ‘suitable man’. I recall reading an editorial that was responding to an article about some ‘man crisis’ or whatever term they coined. Basically the article was a complaint about how women in high-powered careers - lawyers, CEOs, bankers, etc. were unable to find a man of similar stature. The editorial responded (and I agree) that this is such a ridiculous notion. Does a successful woman need a man at least as successful as she is? There are plenty of male doctors, bankers and lawyers married to smart, educated women in ordinary jobs. Do women (and men) feel uncomfortible in the role where the woman is the primary breadwinner?
Independant, to me, means making your own decisions. Iknow a woman who has said one more than once, Let me ask my husband. Gosh, it makes me happy I’m single.
You’d be surprised how many men are intimidated by a woman in power. I know two single, female partners here who are experiencing what you describe. Cool as shit, too. You’d never know they were partners unless they told you. They’re having a hard time finding someone to date, let alone marry. One says as soon as they find out she’s a partner, they scatter. It’s happened twice to her, so far.
The other one is Jewish, and her faith is important to her. So, that drains a lot of prospects out of her serious dating pool. She’s mentioned she has family pressure to marry someone successful (read: rich) so she probably doesn’t count. She does say, however, when asked what she does, she just says she’s a lawyer (if she’s just dating for ‘fun’) and doesn’t disclose she’s a partner unless pressed.
Well, just don’t use it as an excuse to keep hating women. 
UrbanChic has a good point – I think that powerful women are often perceived as being somewhat “masculine,” which puts off a lot of men who can’t see past the stereotype – but that’s also a good question. Speaking strictly for myself, I don’t know how I’d feel about a man who was smart and educated but less ambitious/successful than myself (not that I’m all that ambitious/successful!). I guess that maybe I see it as another measure of equality: I don’t want someone who I perceive as lazier or less motivated than me any more than I’d want someone I perceive as dumber than me. I don’t think I’d mind being the primary breadwinner if that was our choice, but I don’t think I’d enjoy being in that role if it was because the man was incapable of contributing to the household.
Is it that she truly can’t make a decision without him, or is she just asking him out of courtesy?
My best friend always checks with his wife before we make plans (especially nowadays, when our plans often involve her, too). It’s not that he can’t make a decision, or that he needs “permission” to do things, it’s just that he respects the fact that he and his wife share their lives, household, and child. Which, I think, is how it should be.
Funny, being around my friend and his wife often makes me wish that I weren’t single. 
Maybe it’s because you have a history of having a bad attitude toward women in some of your posts. You’ve spouted your own stereotypes in the past and now that you’ve got a pit thread devoted to you, I assumed you were hiding behind the phrase “media stereotype”. I will apologize if that was wrong. I hope you can understand some posters’ skepticism.
Perhaps. Just as long as we (media or otherwise) don’t make generalizations that a workaholic woman is that way because of a man. Some may very well want to date, but as you say, it can be difficult. Everyone has their priorities and she may choose a career over a man.
Wow, I hope not. I would think it’s your parenthetical statement that is the more likely motivation, with attracting women being a nice bonus.
My husband has no problem with my earning 40% more than him. If a man’s ego is driven by self-assurance and the content of his character, rather than something tangible like money, then it’s not a problem. It’s not a competition, it’s a partnership. He feels just as macho as he would if he were the primary breadwinner.
I consider myself an independent woman, and I ask my husband before making big decisions, too. I don’t ask him before I buy a pair of pants, but we make decisions like cars and car repairs together.
My husband is an independent man, too. He has his own work, his own interests, his own friends; heck, we still have our own bank accounts. We come together and do things together because we want to, not because we have to. Neither one of us is going to fall apart if the other has to leave town for a week.
(And I agree with Misnomer - this thread isn’t the place for a discussion of how msmith feels about women. There’s a Pit thread just for that.)
I agree, since I spent the first paragraph explaining my skepticism and the rest of my response discussing the topic at hand.
My post wasn’t aimed at you, Nutty Bunny - just agreeing with others who have mentioned that this isn’t the place.
To answer the second question first - the reason we don’t talk about the “independent man” is that it has been assumed throughout most of Western history that men are going to be independent. They grow up, they get jobs, they leave the house. Women, on the other hand, have traditionally been taken care of by men, first by their father, then by their husband. The idea of the "independant woman’ is a holdover from that period - it’s novel, so they gave it a name.
Historically, then, “independent woman” has two connotations. First, the woman is handling her own finances, paying her own bills, and earning her own income. Second, the woman is single, because if she wasn’t single, she wouldn’t need to be earning her own money. As it becomes less novel for women to have jobs and not get married, it’s taken on more connotations, but that’s where the term comes from, originally.
And though I don’t always agree with you msmith, I do agree that the stereotypical media portrayal of an independent woman involves an unusually high degree of bitchiness. Not only that, but the woman in question is usually only one chance encounter away from becoming totally dependent on a guy and therefore becoming happy. It blows. Actually, the first Charlie’s Angels movie (what? Stop laughing, dammit!) does a pretty fair job of portraying women who are independent without being bitchy. Plus, stuff blows up. And Crispin Glover’s in it. It might give you a more complete idea of what independent women are actually like.