If you’re keeping score, put this childless guy down in the “beautiful” column. I strongly suspect that if & when I have kids of my own, I’ll be in full agreement with what Balduran said.
Just wanted this repeated, as we seem to be reaching “shrill” level in the debate. Good manners go both ways. If someone was standing a few feet away from you, tapping their foot, rolling their eyes and sighing as loudly as possible, would you
a) move aside, chagrined at what a rude doofus you’ve been to keep this obviously important person from their business when thier time is so much more valuable than yours?
or
b) continue to stand and chat, thinking to yourself “What a rude prick. Why the hell should I move out of the way for someone too self absorbed to even say ‘excuse me.’?”
Both people are exhibiting bad manners, and it seems everyone expects the other person to budge. It would go a lot easier if we all exercised some common courtesy. Entitlement seems to be the order of the day.
“Excuse me, but I can’t get past your stroller.”
“I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to block you in”
has turned into
“Any day, lady, there are people here trying to get through!”
“So go around, jerkoff, nobody’s stopping you!”
In many situations, the attitude you give is the attitude you get back. Or as my grandmother used to spout “you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” Not that I remember too much of what she said, I don’t go for that whole outdated respect your elders crap.
Anecdote time!
A dear friend of mine had recently had a baby, and her oldest child was only a year old. I offered to watch her year-old child for a day when she was having a particularly hectic day and her husband wasn’t available.
Late in the morning, I decided to take the baby out for a walk, and bundled her all up in her SUV sized stroller (ugh - it only convinced me that when I have children, I want a much smaller infant handcart). Anyway, it was a quiet enough street, and I did my best to keep the monster as far to the right of the sidewalk as possible, allowing space for people to pass me from behind, or walk in the other direction. It was a pretty big sidewalk, so I was relieved. However, two people, walking from the opposite direction, shot me very obviously dirty looks. One was male, one was female. Both were joggers. I thought, okay, maybe there’s not enough room. I pushed the stroller so some of it was on the grass to make more room - though it honestly looked like plenty of room to me. I didn’t get bumped or nudged or even feel a slight breeze as people passed me. But whatever. Also, I peeked at the baby to make sure she hadn’t grown another head while I wasn’t looking or something. She was content. Okay.
A couple more joggers passed me from behind, but I didn’t see their faces. Other joggers/walkers passed from the opposite direction without incident or a sideways glance, and I got one smile from a jogging lady.
As I was starting for home, the baby’s aunt saw me from a nearby building, and came down and stopped to have a chat. Turned out she worked there, and recgonised the behemoth stroller dealie I was pushing. I didn’t really know her very well, but hey, that’s her neice I’m carting around, I’ll stop and chit chat. As we were talking, I told her I wanted to move the cart onto the grass nearby (it wasn’t like, bright green sparkly park grass, it was just a nice, convenient slab of weeds I could park the baby on while not blocking anyone’s path. I manuevered the monster onto the patch, and was quite satisfied to see that I was now out of everyone’s way. Not an inch of that thing was on the sidewalk, or in a driveway, or sitting anywhere a normal human being would feel the need to be. I hunkered down in front of the baby, dabbing at a little drool, adjusting her wee hat, just generally making sure she was happy, while aunt-lady chatted with me and cooed at the baby.
Aunt-lady gesticulates. A lot. Guess where she stood most of the time? Yep, in the sidewalk. People were slowing down and walking around her - and then glaring at me! Hey, folks, I had the baby turned toward me, which was not facing the sidewalk, but parallel to it, there was plenty of space for aunt lady to stand by me, beside me, or even in front of the stroller, and have the best view of the baby - but she chose to stand in the sidewalk. Yes, I even mentioned to her a couple of times that maybe she could step off the sidewalk and stand by me, so “we” didn’t block people’s way. She insisted she’d “only be a minute”, and stood there for ten minutes, chatting with me. And I got glared at. I guess it must be my fault for bringing baby-bait out in the open to attract rude aunts or other people who might want to stop and block the sidewalk. How silly of me to not know.
The kicker came when she finally had to go back to work, and she walks into the building. I get behind the stroller, take a deep sigh, and decide how I want to manuever this thing back onto the sidewalk. I haven’t moved it an inch, when a male jogger runs by and tosses this little gem over his shoulder: “You young mothers just take up space the rest of us could be using! You make me sick.” Stunned by what I just heard (oh, no you di’n’t!), and unable to get my wits back about me in time to zing the bastard, I ended up calling out to him, rather petulantly and overall unhelpfully: “I’m just the babysitter!” Without missing a beat, he yells back, “Then you’re a fucking enabler!”
Wow.
So yeah. There are rude, inconsiderate “monsters” all over the place, with a gigantic sense of entitlement. It’s certainly not everybody, and it’s most certainly not limited to mothers.
Maureen: I think you really nailed it with your first post. My wife would agree.
As just the Father, I know I go to restaurants that are family friendly as you never know when your kid is going to embarrass you in public. You know those annoying kids at Friendlies jumping up and down on the seat and screaming for Ice Cream? I used to roll my eyes at the parents. Now I am secretly delighted because it makes my kids look well behaved. This is especially true with two kids.
Jim
I get your point, but why should I have to ask to be able to walk in a public area? It is no big deal for me to move my shopping cart off to the side when I am in an aisle, it is also a no-brainer not to stand at the top of an escalator and chat with a friend while blocking it for others. By just plopping your ass/cart/stroller wherever you feel like and then get snippy when others are pissed off because you don’t seem to care if people have to squeeze by…well, who is the rude, inconsiderate person here?
Yes, I usually say “excuse me” politely, but more often than not, I get a nasty look and an audible sigh that they have to inconvenience themselves and move so others can get by. Those are the people I wish instant karma to strike twice-fold.
Because other human beings share the area with you. It’s simply not possible for the public area to be completely clear of other people. It is inevitable that from time to time, one person will inadvertently block another’s path.
By the same token, why should she have to ask to park her troller in a public area?
Again, it seems you’re falling into the whole entitlement thing. Are you speaking for “others,” or just you? Do you really care if “others” can get by? It sounds like you, personally are irritated and insulted that you have to put up with this stroller in your way. I doubt anyone else’s comfort or irritation comes into it.
And I agree. As I said, the whole polite thing goes both ways. You’re going to run into jerks on either side, as Anastaseon pointed out.
Bah. I meant “stroller,” not “troller.” Freudian slip. 
Of course I read what I wrote. “Untrained housepets” is a great metaphor for the way kids often act in public. It’s descriptive and visual. I could marry that metaphor and have its babies. Then I will take those babies to places I used to think were inappropriate and apologize for not finding a sitter.
In this thread, common themes from parents include:
- Have some sympathy, child-raising is hard, expensive, and time-consuming; we’re worn out.
- Animal-like behavior is normal for kids; they’re like seeing eye dogs and olives, necessary for civilization
- You were a kid; actually, you were an obnoxious kid; were your parents above reproach?
- Don’t be so intolerant
All interesting and worthy comments.
Then vague insults:
- Go sequester yourself in your apartment
- You won’t ever “get life” until you have a child
- You don’t have kids; you’re the selfish ones who only care about themselves
Barely worth commenting on, except for that last one.
There’s been a picture painted here of childless adults having a sense of entitlement, of tending only to their own desires, drinking wine, eating chocolate, ignoring the needs of the disadvantaged – the distilled image of an inconsiderate consumer. Throw in being rich, well-rested and clean into the mix and you’ve got something worth hating. We’re clearly a privileged class.
Rather than defend myself and the childless millions I represent against an image so clearly despicable and worth ridiculing, I’m going to turn this around. If this is what we’re like, what are you like?
Isn’t creating a baby inherently selfish? What do we gain from it? It’s your legacy that’s being continued. All we get from it is the overpopulation part.
You get the workers bees who will support you in your old age, providing SS funds as well as the actual products and food you use and consume when you are doddering around, too old to run out and drag down a bison to eat by yourself.
As for overpopulation, that bugaboo has been debunked even in the Third World, but especially for developed countries for going on twenty years.
I think anyone who paints parents or the childless or yuppies or the aged with broad brushes is rather foolish, but in the context of this thread, you will note that it is the OP, itself, that began the name-calling, putting “monsters” right into the title.
Interesting. Another case of confirmation bias right within a thread about confirmation bias! That was certainly not how I would have summarized the list from parents. I go with “inconsiderate bastards are capable of having children, and it doesn’t turn them into nice people.”
I have three kids and I get pissed at inconsiderate parents who don’t contain their children in public. Crying babies on airplanes no longer annoy me however. I just look over at my kids reading books or looking out the window quietly, lean back, and think to myself “Ahhhh. Not my problem. Poor little tyke.” and then go to sleep. Infants crying on planes are rarely either the parent’s fault or an indication of a bad child.
And again, totally your opinion. Obviously there are plenty of people who disagree.
You seem to expect people to have children who act like small adults in public at all times. Not gonna happen. Sorry, but it just won’t. They’re learning to be people. That’s their jobs. Some learn faster than others for various reasons, and parents are learning at the same time as kids. Will I try my utmost to teach my kids to be polite and well mannered? Absolutely. Will I guarantee they’ll be civil constantly? You’re joking, right?
As you seem to feel no compunction to return the kind of civility you demand, I’d say you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution. The onus rests on us equally. It’s hard to meet someone in the middle who refuses to budge one step.
The conceiving part, maybe. The raising and providing for and teaching and disciplining and taking care of part, not so much. Rewarding, sometimes, but selfish? Hah!
I, for one, am grateful for all the good parents out there who are doing their part to propagate the human species. Doing the parenting thing well is one of the least selfish things people can do with their lives.
I didn’t know that the UN expects the world population to stabilize by 2050 at 9 billion. Interesting stuff. It was just a decade ago that I had a biology teacher saying the opposite.
Oh, so because I’m 19, in school and work in the summer, I’m not a fully formed human being because I don’t have (and never intend on having) kids?
I’m tired of this attitude that kids are more important than myself. I can’t have kids - I’ll be a living wreck, I get panic attacks when being left in charge of children. Oh well, I suppose I should have a child anyway and be incapable of caring for it because I need to have a child and put it first.
And what’s with this whole attitude that mothers are so out of it because all they are thinking of is their own kids, so that paranoia gives them the justification to be rude? I survived just fine when my parents didn’t keep me on a leash in public.
Try to control the knee a little bit. It’s making your keyboard throw up.
I have more respect for people who decide not to have kids because they believe they won’t be good parents than I do for people who just pop 'em out for the wrong reasons.
Try it this way. When you are single and have no kids, or even married and have no kids, you have no responsibility beyond yourself. You can change jobs, homes, careers, friends, etc. at the drop of a hat. Your one and only responsibility is to yourself (or, if married, your spouse). What you do affects you. That’s it. You don’t HAVE to get up and go to work, because you’re the only one being affected by not having that income. You can take off Friday night and not come back til Tuesday morning without telling anyone, because YOU are the only one you answer to.
That all changes when you have a child. Suddenly, you have to care for this whole other person. You have to make sure they’re fed, healthy, cared for when you’re working (so much of a huge problem it deserves its own thread), their futures planned for…it goes on and on. You are no longer all about just you. You can never be just about you ever again. If you’ve decided that’s not for you, then more power to you for knowing that. But yeah, it is inherently selfish. THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY A BAD THING. Being selfish about your own life is up to you. But because you haven’t seen the issue from both sides and most likely won’t, then you really do lack perspective on it. That’s not a judgement call, that’s just the way it is.
To add to tomndebb reply, you can think if it as some sort of social contract. You enjoy the benefits of society today with the agreement of contributing to it yourself somewhere down the line (which may or may not be adding to the population).
Of course everything we do is selfish to some degree as all our actions are filtered through our own desires and wants. But the desire to take care of another is a pretty good one in my book.
Finally, as with any other living thing on the planet, procreation is one of our most fundamental rights.
Woah. When you can’t even bathe more than 2 times a week, don’t you think that maybe you’re being… too accomodating of your children? Or perhaps, the father of the children needs to chip in a bit?
Junior should to be taught from Day One that you are the one in charge, and what you say goes. So when it’s mommy’s bath time, Junior needs to behave. When mommy wants to watch her show on TV, Junior needs to leave her alone. When mommy’s on the phone, Junior needs to be quiet.
When my brother and I were growing up, we never prevented our parents from doing their daily activities. My mom showered and put on her makeup every day. My parents had a social life, they went out. We just had a babysitter, no big deal. If they wanted to watch the news or whatever, we had to deal with it.
Before you say that I don’t know what I am talking about because I don’t have biological children of my own, my boyfriend has three young children whom he has part-time custody of and who stay at our house on a regular basis.
He/she didn’t say that.
Actually, you probably can have kids. Being around your own kids is different to being around other’s. I used to feel quite uncomfortable around other people’s children, now that I have one of my own, I am very comfortable with her.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that kids, in general, are more important than you. But, MY child is certainly a lot more important than you, to ME. In fact, my child is more important to me than anyone else outside my immediate family. I fully expect that YOUR family is more important to you than any unrelated kids you come across, that is as it should be.
I find it interesting that you have already decided, at 19, that you won’t have children. When I was 19, I didn’t even think about children, I knew I wasn’t comfortable around them, but that was about it.
Look, it’s several things, parents are quite likely very tired and stressed, they are also naturally focussed on their children, that is the way it is, and that is partly why children survive, because there is someone always looking out for them.
That doesn’t give them the right to be rude, but that does explain why they may be unaware of what’s going on around them.
Do you know what happens to the attention range of people under stress? It becomes narrowed, focussed on the specific task at hand. Information that they receive (from their ears and eyes) which is not related to the task they are doing is often discarded before it even gets to their short term memory. You, trying to get past them on the footpath or whatever, just don’t register. They’re not ignoring you, they don’t even perceive that you exist.
All you need to do with these people, is to let them know you are there, “excuse me…” and ask them to move, “can you please move your stroller over?”
If they don’t move then, well then they are rude and worthy of whatever insults you feel like sending their way (via the BBQ Pit of course, because if you do it to their face, then you are just as rude as they are.)
Frank, point received, however my remark was aimed at bluetrust, not VCO3, just sayin.