White people suck

The BBQ Pit
101

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
Racial slurs do, however, change as the speaker’s race changes.

If Weirddave was not a white person, his OP could reasonably be construed as a racist remark. He is a white person, though, which means he can say whatever he wants about white people as a group. He can’t talk about Poles if he isn’t Polish or French-Canadians if he isn’t French-Canadian and so on, but he can talk about white people.

That’s why black guy can call another a “nigger” but I can’t call him the same thing. It’s why Jews can make jokes about Jews being cheapskates but non-Jews can’t (although they do).
[/QUOTE]

A South African incident seems to suggest otherwise (see second half of the report).

102

[QUOTE=Zoe]
Because racial slurs don’t change just because the race changes. It doesn’t matter to me if the OP says something to the effect of “Pardon me white I exaggerate here, but all of the people in my race are assholes.”
[/quote]

That’s unfortunate, because I think this it has the effect of diminishing real racism. This racism isn’t “fake” because it’s anti-white, by the way, it’s fake because it’s clearly fake and not intended to be taken at face value.

As I noted when you pointed it out. This is what happens when you make generalizations, which I definitely did. To cut a lot of this short, though: I’m not trying to deny that some white people experience discrimination or rob you of any feeling of pride you take from your experiences, which I think are really commendable in the face of what you’ve been through. I hope you didn’t interpret anything I said that way, because I don’t think it comes close to what I said, or what I was trying to say about group pride.

That’s why I specified race as a reason for the discrimination I was discussing. Plenty of white women, white gays, white Jews and others feel discrimination, and I’m not dumb enough to deny that. Generally it’s not because they’re white, though, it’s because of other aspects of their identity. The point (because I think this is getting lost) is that that’s why I think being proud of one’s whiteness is somewhat sillier than being proud of being black, female, gay and so on. White people are not the only group for whom this is true, which I illustrated with some goofy examples - although some vegetarians are really that put-upon.

That’s not the way I looked at those laws, but you make a fair point because that’s certainly race-based, even if the idea was protecting white people.
The differences between the white and black (or female, or gay, or other minority) experiences don’t need to be detailed because we both agree about them. So what are we arguing about here? That I said no white people are ever discriminated against? I didn’t say that. That I said I am okay with racism as long as it’s directed against white people? I didn’t say that either.

103

[QUOTE=Marley23]
Maybe I am, but again - admitting that I’m making a generalization - white people generally aren’t discriminated against as a group and haven’t been oppressed in the USA. I’ll grant that I didn’t think of your exception, but I don’t think it invalidates what I’m saying by and large, particularly since you say right here that you’ve chosen to become part of a white minority.

[/QUOTE]

Should black immigrants put up with being called niggers just because they chose to make themselves a minority?

That sounds an awful lot like “she had it coming officer, didn’t you see what she was wearing?”
No, saying white people suck because of the actions of one white person isn’t anywhere near the level of calling a black person a nigger. Calling a black person a nigger isn’t anywhere near the level of lynching one either, that doesn’t mean it’s ok to do it. I think the thread title is a minor offense, but it’s still an offense, how can you fault for people objecting to it?

104

Actually, I’m not very clear on your point either. Are you saying it’s more okay to be proud of having oppressed ancestors than to be proud of non-oppressed ancestors? Because they strike me equally ridiculous. How does having an ancestor who was chattel somehow transform someone’s racial or ethnic pride into something more favorable?

105

[QUOTE=Grossbottom]
Actually, I’m not very clear on your point either. Are you saying it’s more okay to be proud of having oppressed ancestors than to be proud of non-oppressed ancestors? Because they strike me equally ridiculous. How does having an ancestor who was chattel somehow transform someone’s racial or ethnic pride into something more favorable?
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He’s saying there’s no point in being proud of your ancestry regardless of whether or not they were oppressed.

106

[QUOTE=Stryfe]
Firstly “we white folk” are not one homogeneous group, so “we” haven’t been running the show, a small minority of the rich and privileged have.

Secondly no-one deserves to have hate speech directed at them regardless of skin colour etc, especially not for actions which are not their own.

As to your last point, when does it become hate speech?
[/QUOTE]

I’ve been agreeing with just about everything you’ve been saying in this thread. I am making no apologies to anyone for being born white, and I also refuse my share of “the white man’s burden,” too - I am responsible for my own actions, not those of any other white people, past or present.

107

I have no problem with my fellow Whites in general. I just can’t stand the working-, middle-, upperclass, urbanites, suburbanites, rustics, Protestants, Catholics, Jews, pagans, atheists, lefties, righties, middle-of-the-roaders, gays, straights, bisexuals, pacifists, gun nuts, libertarians, civil libertarians, authoritarians, jocks, nerds, artsy-fartsies, private sector, public servants, people who can parallel park better than I can…

108

[QUOTE=Snarky_Kong]
Should black immigrants put up with being called niggers just because they chose to make themselves a minority?
[/quote]

Yeah, this is the same thing Erasmus did: reacting to a particular phrase without regard to what it actually meant. I said the fact that Zoe chose to become part of a white minority shows that white people are generally not part of a minority. It’s a very straightforward “exception proves the rule” thing. I never said Zoe deserved any kind of discrimination or that it was okay. I was pointing out that a gay or black person in this country - with the exception of some specific communities, I guess - does not have to go anyplace to become a member of a minority group, while a white person is likely to be in the majority (or plurality) just about everywhere. It’s a comment on the different experiences of white people and members of other groups.

Because I don’t think the OP is derogatory, discriminatory, racist or hateful against white people in any serious way.

There’s no point in being proud of fixed parts of your identity regardless of oppression. But I can *understand/i] without trouble why people take a “We’re still here, dammit!” kind of pride when they know that people like them were picked on - or ARE picked on - for who they are. And in general, white people as a group haven’t had that experience.
Being black or gay isn’t an accomplishment, but since some dicks treat it/treated it as a bad thing, I can understand why it’s celebrated as a good thing within those groups. And it doesn’t bother me, because the racists and bigots of the world are scum who deserve to have their hatred flung back in their faces.
What I was reacting to initially was diggleblop saying he was proud of being white, and I was asking why that’s so. diggleblop doesn’t share in the accomplishment of historical, or living, white people just because he has a similar skin tone. It’s nothing to be ashamed of because guilt also isn’t transmitted that way, but I see no point in being proud of it, or declaring “It’s who you are,” which I think is incorrect.
That’s true for any people of any skin tone, but if you compare it to the experiences of blacks and gays and women in the US, where the effects of historical oppression are still being felt and where large rights movements are still well within living memory- I’m not going to object to that.

109

[QUOTE=Mellivora capensis]
A South African incident seems to suggest otherwise (see second half of the report).
[/QUOTE]

American race relations and South African race relations hardly parallel one another. Anyway, the plain fact is that’s how it works in America. Watch any comic and see who they make fun of- invariably, it will be their own people.

110

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
American race relations and South African race relations hardly parallel one another.
[/QUOTE]

…which, not to be self-centered, is why I made a point of identifying the USA whenever I said white people weren’t victims of group discrimination. I knew somebody was going to bring up South Africa sooner or later. It’s the race-discussion equivalent of Godwin.

111

[QUOTE=Marley23]
But I can *understand/i] without trouble why people take a “We’re still here, dammit!” kind of pride when they know that people like them were picked on - or ARE picked on - for who they are. And in general, white people as a group haven’t had that experience.
[/quote]

I can understand it too. But what I do not understand how you can find it less silly than the stubborn pride of a West Virginia coal mining family, or that of an Irish-American whose ancestors were greeted to these shores with a brick to the face, or that of purebred WASP whose ancestors survived unfathomable hell in the first wave of English colonization. I forget offhand the casualty rate on Jamestown’s first five years but I’m pretty sure all associated would have qualify for a complimentary “I’m still here dammit” t-shirt.

112

[QUOTE=Marley23]
It’s the race-discussion equivalent of Godwin.
[/QUOTE]

Well, to be accurate, Godwin is primarily about race discussions… :smiley:

113

[QUOTE=Grossbottom]
I can understand it too. But what I do not understand how you can find it less silly than the stubborn pride of a West Virginia coal mining family, or that of an Irish-American whose ancestors were greeted to these shores with a brick to the face, or that of purebred WASP whose ancestors survived unfathomable hell in the first wave of English colonization. I forget offhand the casualty rate on Jamestown’s first five years but I’m pretty sure all associated would have qualify for a complimentary “I’m still here dammit” t-shirt.
[/QUOTE]

But none of that has anything to do with their latter-day descendants. If you are going to take credit for their achievements, you have to take the blame for the failings too.

Thus: don’t be proud of your race but don’t apologise for it either.

114

[QUOTE=Grossbottom]
I can understand it too. But what I do not understand how you can find it less silly than the stubborn pride of a West Virginia coal mining family, or that of an Irish-American whose ancestors were greeted to these shores with a brick to the face, or that of purebred WASP whose ancestors survived unfathomable hell in the first wave of English colonization.
[/quote]

I think you’re assuming I ruled out all subgroups within the larger category of white people when I was talking about white people as a specific group.
I leave it to you to discern the difference in the impacts of having ancestors who settled Jamestown 400 years ago with having ancestors who marched on Washington in 1968. :wink:

115

[QUOTE=Marley23]
Congratulations, you’ve managed to get outraged about nothing while failing to understand what I actually wrote.
[/QUOTE]

First things first. I do owe you an apology. I managed to over-generalize based on my distaste for some of your comments, resulting in a much more strident accusation than you deserved. While I still think some of your views are seriously flawed, it was wrong of me to extrapolate that into my insinuation in terms of it affecting your moderation. I’m sorry.

It may not be close, but ~20% is nothing to sneeze at, either.

It’s disingenuous to try and split out the hate crimes as crimes against individual whites. The entire concept behind hate crimes is that the victims are victimized specifically because of their membership in such a group.

The problem is that you’re asserting the silliness of racial pride but creating an exception that covers every non-white. In a roundabout way, you’ve completely undermined your own point on the silliness of racial pride, and you’ve implicitly furthered the “white and non-whites” groupings that’re fundamental problems for race relations in the U.S.

You’re right, and I apologize again. I still think you’re wrong with some of your statements, but I did go way too far with my reasoning.

[QUOTE=Marley23]
Maybe I am, but again - admitting that I’m making a generalization - white people generally aren’t discriminated against as a group and haven’t been oppressed in the USA. I’ll grant that I didn’t think of your exception, but I don’t think it invalidates what I’m saying by and large, particularly since you say right here that you’ve chosen to become part of a white minority.
[/QUOTE]

This worries me a little. By focusing on her choice to enter that situation, it seems like there’s an implied nod in favor of segregation.

It’s not that you’re okay with it, per se. It’s that you keep trying to write off certain portions of it as inconsequential.

[QUOTE=Zoe]
Over all, not for their race, no. But half of the white people in this country have been and are discriminated against for their gender. Many black women will tell you that they have had more gender-based discrimination than race-based. It’s been twenty or so years since I’ve seen a report so maybe things are changing for a younger generation of black women. I don’t know. That gives you an idea of how bad gender discrimination can be.
[/QUOTE]

Just as a quick aside: You’re sort of doing the same thing with gender that Marley’s doing with race. While women generally get the short end of the stick in terms of gender discrimination, there are areas where men get screwed based on their gender, too. So it’s a little unfair to say just half of the white people in this country have been victims of gender discrimination.

[QUOTE=Marley23]
That’s unfortunate, because I think this it has the effect of diminishing real racism. This racism isn’t “fake” because it’s anti-white, by the way, it’s fake because it’s clearly fake and not intended to be taken at face value.
[/QUOTE]

There’s two ways to see racism in the original post. The first and obvious way is the blatant “white people suck” statement, which I believe is what you’re addressing in terms of being clearly fake.

However, there’s a slightly more subtle form of racism that stems from the inherent grouping of all white people in with Craig the Racist Asshole. That grouping comes not just from the “white people suck” statement, but also from the very sincere-sounding apology that Weirddave offered to Chi. It’s both offensive and racist to group a bunch of innocent people in with one lone asshole, solely on the basis of skin color.

116

[QUOTE=featherlou]
I’ve been agreeing with just about everything you’ve been saying in this thread. I am making no apologies to anyone for being born white, and I also refuse my share of “the white man’s burden,” too - I am responsible for my own actions, not those of any other white people, past or present.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks Featherlou, nice to have some support. I was beginning to regret posting in this thread.

117

[QUOTE=Erasmus Darwin]

There’s two ways to see racism in the original post. The first and obvious way is the blatant “white people suck” statement, which I believe is what you’re addressing in terms of being clearly fake.

However, there’s a slightly more subtle form of racism that stems from the inherent grouping of all white people in with Craig the Racist Asshole. That grouping comes not just from the “white people suck” statement, but also from the very sincere-sounding apology that Weirddave offered to Chi. It’s both offensive and racist to group a bunch of innocent people in with one lone asshole, solely on the basis of skin color.
[/QUOTE]

OTOH, maybe I titled the thread with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek with an eye towards the tiny bit of irony inherent in starting a thread condemning racist remarks by making a blanket racist statement.

118

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
OTOH, maybe I titled the thread with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek with an eye towards the tiny bit of irony inherent in starting a thread condemning racist remarks by making a blanket racist statement.
[/QUOTE]

Possible, but as we don’t know what’s going on in our head we’ll never really know for sure.

We have to take your word for it, which given what you’ve posted so far is not worth much.

119

[QUOTE=Erasmus Darwin]
First things first. I do owe you an apology. I managed to over-generalize based on my distaste for some of your comments, resulting in a much more strident accusation than you deserved. While I still think some of your views are seriously flawed, it was wrong of me to extrapolate that into my insinuation in terms of it affecting your moderation. I’m sorry.
[/quote]

Much appreciated.

And I haven’t dismissed any crime, whether it’s those against Zoe or the ones you cited. But the bottom line is that if the question is “Have white people, as a group, ever been oppressed in the USA” - can you seriously answer “yes?” There are groups of people who are white who have been, yes, but regardless of the rate of hate crimes I just don’t think that’s the case. (If you need a statistical measurement, compare the number of black victims to the size of the black population, and then do the same for white people.)

I know what the idea of hate crimes is. Despite the existence of hate crimes against white people, I don’t view whites as an oppressed group. I don’t think that makes sense for any definition of “oppressed.” [ETA] If you go back far enough in history and try hard enough, everybody has probably been oppressed somewhere by someone else. History sucks that way, and that’s another reason taking pride out of oppression doesn’t make a lot of sense - but that doesn’t mean I can’t understand it, particularly when the effects of the oppression are still being felt, which is true in the case of blacks and gays and (arguably - I think so) women. For white people at large? Not so much.

And it also covers the majority of whites. I discussed group pride, not just racial pride. You’ve harped on the fact that I mentioned black people as an example but overlooked gays, most of whom, statistically, are probably white. I used those two groups as examples repeatedly, and it seems like you focused on them rather than realizing they are examples of a full list that isn’t worth making - which would also include women, Latinos, Asians, Jews and plenty of others. In the U.S. there are more white women than men as well. But I think the fact remains that having pride in being white is especially silly here.

There’s more than race going on here, as I detailed above.

I already dealt with this in a separate post. I may be explaining myself poorly, but I think you’ve completely missed the point. The fact that she had to choose to become a white minority shows that most white people aren’t typically in the minority. That’s all I said it means.

As I said earlier, it’s not inconsequential for the reason of targeting white people.

And just like everybody else in the thread, I told Weirddave in my first post that he doesn’t need to feel sorry or embarrassed for what Craig said, any more than you or I should feel proud for what some white person did. Really, I think you can see in the OP that Weirddave knew his apology is unnecessary. He’s embarrassed to think that he could be lumped in with assholes like that and wanted to support Chi and let him know he’s not like Craig. The rest is venting, and both are completely understandable. I don’t think calling him a racist is a productive or intelligent way to deal with that.

120

[QUOTE=featherlou]
I’ve been agreeing with just about everything you’ve been saying in this thread. I am making no apologies to anyone for being born white, and I also refuse my share of “the white man’s burden,” too - I am responsible for my own actions, not those of any other white people, past or present.
[/QUOTE]

Pretty much my views exactly. I understand history and I feel a great sense of connection to it, but I don’t feel I have any type of credit or debit from my ancestors.

I might get pitted for this, but it wouldn’t be the first time (it’d be the second actually). I had a [friendly] discussion recently with some black students who were telling me I was lucky to be white. Since I can’t say I know what it’s like to be black, this is how I explained being white to the students:

“Have you ever known anybody who had CP or was mildly retarded or had some other handicap that prevented them from having a great career- black or white? And so they had to take sub par menial jobs and they couldn’t really ‘run and play’ like the other children?”

They all answered yes, of course. Everyone knows someone with a disability.

“Okay, let’s say the people you knew with disabilities were named TJ and Edna. Whenever you were having bad money problems, or couldn’t find a job you wanted that paid your bills, did you ever find yourself thinking ‘well, at least I’m not TJ and Edna’ and that really cheered you up? Did you ever feel that not being handicapped really gave you a leg up or a huge advantage for which you should be truly grateful?”

One said yes, the others said- honestly- ‘no’, they never felt any particular advantage or relief over not being handicapped.

“Okay, I am NOT comparing being black to being mentally or physically impaired… please understand that… but being white is kind of like being not handicapped. It definitely has its advantages over being handicapped, but it really doesn’t get you anything special either. When you have no money and no connections and all, being white doesn’t seem like any advantage at all. It’s just something you are and something you’re not.”

I think with that one discussion I forever changed their lives for the better and solved race relations in Alabama. Having now solved this problem we’re now going to move in together and have our own reality show called “UNCLE JON’S CONDO” in which we live together and take on pollution and the Palestinian question.

Well, maybe not, but I think it did explain “whiteness” a bit- it’s just really not a leg-up unless you’re white AND RICH. There’s never been a bad time in America- in history- to be white and rich in fact. White and rich has advantages I’m sure over black and rich (you don’t have to put up with as much prejudice and harassment at least), but black and rich is a much greater advantage than being white and poor. Black and poor of course just sucks, BUT please don’t think white and poor is leaps and bounds better- it’s the poor part that really sucks, and luckily that’s the part that can be overcome. Broke and having to take shit from assholes for poverty wages is something that knows no race.

To echo Zoe (which I find myself doing a lot of late- I have a theory she’s from a Southern branch of Buddha’s family) racism is racism and while on the social level it’s one issue “on the ground” it’s quite another; the white kid being picked on unmercifully by bullies at a predominantly black school has no obligation to think “Well this is bad, but when I think what their ancestors went through it balances…”. To paraphrase Sophia from Color Purple “You need to bust Mistah’s head open and thank on heaven later!”, the white victim of racism needs to kick as much ass as they can, run as fast as they can, and think on sociology later, same as with anybody who’s being bullied by the majority.

Anyway, I won’t say that I’m free of prejudice- I WISH I could say that I was. I can honestly say I’m not bigoted (i.e. I do not view people of other races as automatically inferior to me in any regard) and that I and practically all of my friends of whatever race have all come a long way from the views that were prevalent in our childhood.

But to use a link I’ve used before I think Avenue Q expresses my own conflicts and those of most people best. (“If we all could just admit/that we are racist a little bit/even though we all know that it’s wroooooonnnng/maybe it would help us/get along!”)
And don’t do drugs.

Now we’ll get back to the point of the thread, which is that Weirddave called me a faggot and mocked my dead Mama. Discuss!