[QUOTE=Oredigger77]
Slightly diffrent version that I jsut thought of what if the girl just wanted him around so he’s in one room watching tv and she back in the bed room or she like shoes and wants to barrow his for the purpose its all weird but is he really cheating?
[/QUOTE]
Is he in any way turned on by the thought of her masturbating with his shoes or in the next room?
How about this: if you have to ask your girlfriend, “Hey, is this cheating?” odds are it probably is.
[QUOTE=Atomicktom]
So, if I perform cunilingus on a girl, and she doesn’t do anything to reciprocate, it’s not infidelity? I’m not judging; just seeking clarification.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, thank you. I see I didn’t type quite what I meant. He helped her come, just by being there, he didn’t touch her, she didn’t touch him. I don’t see the infidelity. It would be on another level, and a different discussion if the boyfriend had gone down on the kinky neighbor woman.
What about that Dan Savage column the other week, The A.V. Club — Pop culture obsessives writing for the pop culture obsessed. where the music teacher had a clapping fetish, and asked a date to clap for her. If this guy asked someone with a steady SO to clap for him, would it be infidelity if they did?
Why would he do it if he didn’t want to get her off? I mean, if the sole purpose was making the other woman cum, he’s likely getting some enjoyment from it. Otherwise, why do it? He’s just a good Samaritan, helping that poor woman orgasm?
And yes, when in a monogamous relationship, helping another person orgasm (even if all it gives you is a little psychological jolly knowing you did it) is cheating. Well, to me at least. Yeah, clapping so the woman in front of you cums is cheating, if that’s what gets her off.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
And see, that right there, that’s the bit why your situation and your relationship isn’t anything like the OP’s, or the hypothetical situation you’ve created. It isn’t like those because you and your SO have talked about it.
[/Quote]
I know, communication in a relationship, whoda thunk it?
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
I’m one of “those women” you rhapsodize about as well.
[/QUOTE]
I know, I’ve run across you in the Poly threads. Some women are well worth rhapsodizing about. 
She asked him to participate with her in a sexual act. It’s somewhat unusual in that all he has to do to perform this sexual act is be there, but that doesn’t change the nature of what she asked him to do and the fact that he agreed to it instead of saying “No, sorry, I only participate in sexual acts alone or with my girlfriend’s knowledge and consent.”
Turn that around — the girlfriend is sleeping around with the football team, but it’s okay, because she didn’t climax.
Or: the girlfriend got invited into the boys’ locker room, and she went in and stood around watching, while all the members of the football team pleasured themselves. She didn’t do anything but stand there and look sexy, therefore it’s okay.
See, I don’t think it’s sex per se. But I can appreciate that a girlfriend wouldn’t be too wild about listening to my lawyerly prevarications and highly technical semantics when I’m talking about other women throwing themselves at me. My protestations of being technically, actually, if you think about it, completely innocent… well, that says volumes about the kind of person I might be — opportunistic, selfish, inconsiderate, on the lookout for loopholes that I can exploit to Git Myself Some while she’s not looking.
[QUOTE=hawksgirl]
I assume you’ll pretend to be extremely dense and fail to see the differences between the two scenarios, and call everyone in the thread a hypocrite. Am I close?
[/QUOTE]
Good call, hawksgirl - I knew it was a trap of some kind, and I’m kicking myself now for not seeing this one.
Yawn. Another one of those threads where we have to argue over why these two things that are different from each other, are different from each other.
Well…what if he just listened on the phone while she got herself off. It would be ok then, right…right?
Really, some of the arguments being put out here are really pointless. I think Fish put it quite nicely. Being in a relationship shouldn’t be about ways to do whatever you like and trying to find ways to be technically in the right about it.
[QUOTE=The Sonoran Lizard King]
I know, communication in a relationship, whoda thunk it?
[/QUOTE]
And the assumption here is that if the OP’s “friend” thinks sexual stuff outside the relationship is cool, he really needs to talk about it with his GF and see what kind of wavelength she is on, too.
Hell, anyone should talk about that regardless of their kink or lack thereof, but in this society we’re pretty much settled on monogamy as the most common relationship type, so if you’re not into that entirely, you need to be sure to communicate to avoid any misunderstandings. Same deal with other bedroom activities that aren’t vanilla - don’t cuff your partner down and start demanding that person call you “master” without easing into the activity or at least asking, “So… do you like BDSM?” I’d be just as pissed off about the latter activity being assumed as A-OK and that’s more the way I lean, as I would about the former. Don’t freaking assume.
Oh, and the Savage column? I’d say yes, that guy asking someone besides his wife/GF to clap would be uncool - unless they had an agreement otherwise - especially if it’s a paraphilia (preferring clapping over sexual activity).
I suspect in the OP’s case if I were the GF and not in any agreement that outside sexual activity was OK, I’d be most shocked about the amazing lack of judgement on the part of my SO, and wondering what else he’d think was just fine. What if his neighbor needed some guy to hold her dildo for her while she ground away on it, for instance? It’s like Bill Clinton insisting he didn’t have “sexual relations with that woman” because that didn’t count, but Hillary obviously thought it counted.
Now if they’d discussed stuff like this before and said that watching someone wank wasn’t a big deal, and she threw a fit in this case, then yeah, I’d completely back him up.
[QUOTE=Asimovian]
Would you feel any differently at all if the girl had said, “My boyfriend/husband and I really get off on having someone watch us. You seem like a nice guy…would you mind helping us out?”
[/QUOTE]
Not at all differently.
[QUOTE=Fish]
Turn that around — the girlfriend is sleeping around with the football team, but it’s okay, because she didn’t climax.
[/Quote]
Most likely there was a line crossed there, unless the relationship is open, and he is very understanding.
[QUOTE=Fish]
Or: the girlfriend got invited into the boys’ locker room, and she went in and stood around watching, while all the members of the football team pleasured themselves. She didn’t do anything but stand there and look sexy, therefore it’s okay.
[/Quote]
Well, I feel a well adjusted fellow should be very proud. Enjoy the view, fellows, she’s going home with me. I can understand the football team’s girlfriends having a problem with it.
[QUOTE=Fish]
See, I don’t think it’s sex per se. But I can appreciate that a girlfriend wouldn’t be too wild about listening to my lawyerly prevarications and highly technical semantics when I’m talking about other women throwing themselves at me. My protestations of being technically, actually, if you think about it, completely innocent… well, that says volumes about the kind of person I might be — opportunistic, selfish, inconsiderate, on the lookout for loopholes that I can exploit to Git Myself Some while she’s not looking.
[/QUOTE]
The boyfriend in the OP didn’t ‘Git’ anything but a drink and a view. And we have gone from a view to a kill. I am going to assume with all my might that you are NOT calling me opportunistic, selfish, inconsiderate, and on the lookout for opportunities outside my relationship. I’m not. I’m monogamous by choice, I just don’t consider it the default condition for any woman for whom I’ve paid for a meal. (Oh, then when does this assumption of monogamy occur? 3rd date, cohabitation, after sex?) I think a lot of unmarried couples have an unspoken monogamy assumption, when no such explicit agreement was ever made. “Umm, sure, we have a mortgage and 2 kids together, but when did I promise I’d never sleep with anyone else, exactly?” (yeah, I know, more lawerly prevarication. I’ve missed my calling. 
)
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder]
And the assumption here is that if the OP’s “friend” thinks sexual stuff outside the relationship is cool, he really needs to talk about it with his GF and see what kind of wavelength she is on, too.
[/Quote]
Yes, he should, but most couples wouldn’t think of pre-discussing the issue. I think the boyfriend in the OP behaved reasonably honestly and faithfully, in the circumstances, and it wasn’t a curb-kicking offense. I’m in the minority.
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder]
Hell, anyone should talk about that regardless of their kink or lack thereof, but in this society we’re pretty much settled on monogamy as the most common relationship type, so if you’re not into that entirely, you need to be sure to communicate to avoid any misunderstandings.
Yes, but the line is fuzzy, and I do think the GF over-reacted. What if the boyfriend had seen the Neighbor masturbating in the window on his way home from the bar. Not many men would think ‘how odd’ and keep on trucking. How much viewing before it becomes ‘sexual stuff’ and therefore infidelity? Does it matter if he knew her kink or not? Hell, she should be on stage making money with her ‘hangup’.
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder]
Same deal with other bedroom activities that aren’t vanilla - don’t cuff your partner down and start demanding that person call you “master” without easing into the activity or at least asking, “So… do you like BDSM?” I’d be just as pissed off about the latter activity being assumed as A-OK and that’s more the way I lean, as I would about the former. Don’t freaking assume.
[/Quote]
Nothing I disagree with there, but I’m not sure how it’s germane. The activity was just barely consensual on his part. Was he supposed to shout ‘Fuck No, you freak!’ and throw the drink in her face at her suggestion? Folks seem to think so.
Yes, the purest lilly white action would have been a ‘Nothankyougoshisthatthetime,thanksforthedrinkbye!’ May you all have the courage of your convictions in a similar situation.
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder]
Oh, and the Savage column? I’d say yes, that guy asking someone besides his wife/GF to clap would be uncool - unless they had an agreement otherwise - especially if it’s a paraphilia (preferring clapping over sexual activity).
[/Quote]
So, if there is a known voyeur on the block, you cannot walk past his house without risking accusations of trolling for infidelity? You never know when he might be looking, or getting off. Down this road lies chador, my friends.
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder]
I suspect in the OP’s case if I were the GF and not in any agreement that outside sexual activity was OK, I’d be most shocked about the amazing lack of judgement on the part of my SO, and wondering what else he’d think was just fine. What if his neighbor needed some guy to hold her dildo for her while she ground away on it, for instance? It’s like Bill Clinton insisting he didn’t have “sexual relations with that woman” because that didn’t count, but Hillary obviously thought it counted.
[/Quote]
If you hold a dildo for someone, you are physically participating. If you are sitting in a chair holding a drink, you are not. The neighbor could have been on TV. the GF’s reaction lies in insecurity, and delusions of ownership. Why do we have to endlessly discuss why things that are different, are different? :dubious:
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder]
Now if they’d discussed stuff like this before and said that watching someone wank wasn’t a big deal, and she threw a fit in this case, then yeah, I’d completely back him up.
[/QUOTE]
Most people can’t be bothered to discuss fire escape routes, or what to do in the case of home invasion, but should discuss what to do if a sexy stranger invites them to watch them masturbate?
Fudge it. This isn’t about me. I want VCO3 to come back and tell us if this was real, and if so, how his friend is doing.
[QUOTE=Fish]
Turn that around — the girlfriend is sleeping around with the football team, but it’s okay, because she didn’t climax.
[/QUOTE]
Or why not just turn the original situation around-- your girlfriend is drunk and goes to a male neighbor’s for a nightcap. he tells her he can’t cum without a woman watching, so he proceeds to jerk it in front of her. Cool with you, boyfriends, if she didn’t run screaming?
This was a Chuck Klosterman article in the February 2005 issue of Esquire.
And the girlfriend was right.
If someone has stated that your presence is required to successfully complete their sex act, then your presence ** is** participation.
I agree completely with the second part.
I guess I am going to be the only female in here who says this is not necessarily a relationship ender.
I’m giving the guy a lot of credit for honesty here. Taking the story as presented by the OP, the guy did not get off, he did not feel he had sex, therefore he didnot feel guilty about having sex, and he told his GF about it.
Now it’s up to her whether this, and this alone, is enough cheating to end the relationship. For me this (and this alone!) wouldn’t be, because…he watched somebody have sex, he didn’t have sex.
Touching is key here.
If I were the GF I would not have been happy. And I would definitely have told him where, IMO, he went wrong. That he went too far. That I would be very unhappy if something like that happened again.
But I’m all for honesty in a relationship. If he did exactly this but did not tell me and I found out some other way, off with his head.
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze]
I guess I am going to be the only female in here who says this is not necessarily a relationship ender.
(snip)
But I’m all for honesty in a relationship. If he did exactly this but did not tell me and I found out some other way, off with his head.
[/QUOTE]
It’s the cumulative effect for me. Getting himself in that situation? Stupid and worrying.
Seeing nothing wrong with the situation? Willfully stupid.
Telling me I’m overreacting to the fact that he went into another woman’s home, flirted and then participated (however limited his participation was) in her sexual gratification?
Deal breaker.
[QUOTE=Cat Fight]
Or why not just turn the original situation around-- your girlfriend is drunk and goes to a male neighbor’s for a nightcap. he tells her he can’t cum without a woman watching, so he proceeds to jerk it in front of her. Cool with you, boyfriends, if she didn’t run screaming?
[/QUOTE]
I already covered that, and I said that, no, it would not necessarily be cool, but it wouldn’t be a deal breaker.
Look, it seems to me that the guy is a fucking idiot. He got drunk. He ended up having a nightcap at a girl’s apartment who then proceeds to masturbate in front of him and then he ends up telling his girl as part of a “hey, guess what wacky thing happened to me last night” type story. It sounds to me like the guy is clueless more than anything else. If he really thought what he was doing was wrong, he wouldn’t have mentioned it so casually to his girl (well, not unless he wanted to stir up trouble). Yes, she has a right to be mad at him, and certainly has the right to dump him, but, personally, I think that’s overkill. If everything else in the relationship is in the right place (and that’s a big if), this is the point to have a conversation and make absolutely clear what the boundaries are, as obviously the boyfriend was a bit clueless (whether it was willful cluelessness or not is your choice.) However, I could completely believe a guy thinking watching a girl masturbate is no big deal because he didn’t touch her or she didn’t touch him. That’s just how a lot of guys think. (Not necessarily me, I know it would be wrong, but I know plenty of guys who would think it’s okay.)
Once again, if my girlfriend did that, we’d have a talk, but it would be a venial sin, like drunk kissing another guy. Stupid shit happens. If she actually slept with another guy, that would be a little different.
[QUOTE=The Sonoran Lizard King]
The boyfriend in the OP didn’t ‘Git’ anything but a drink and a view.
[/quote]
And he was a patronizing asshole, trying to assure his girlfriend, “Oh, no, honey, you’re not really upset. You’re overreacting. I get to decide how much reaction is suitable.”
No. What I’m saying is, I would fully understand if someone believed the OP to be so, based on the kind of lawyerly prevarication I see taking place.
[QUOTE=Fish]
And he was a patronizing asshole, trying to assure his girlfriend, “Oh, no, honey, you’re not really upset. You’re overreacting. I get to decide how much reaction is suitable.”
[/Quote]
That’s a different issue, I’ve never stated the GF’s feelings weren’t valid. But, there is such a thing as an over-reaction, and anyone who feels someone else is having one isn’t necessarily a patronizing asshole. You’re putting words in the BF’s mouth, I think. OTOH, it’s usually wise to keep your opinion to yourself and make placating noises when your SO is having an overreaction, like wanting to castrate you for leaving the cap off the toothpaste, again. The BF did not display this wisdom.
[QUOTE=Fish]
No. What I’m saying is, I would fully understand if someone believed the OP to be so, based on the kind of lawyerly prevarication I see taking place.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, that’s OK, then.