Why are women cruel? Or am I naive?

The BBQ Pit
1

Maybe this post should belong in the General Questions forum, but its a half rant - half general philosophical querry. The rant part prompted me to put it here.

Ive known this girl for over a year, and we were never really good friends until about January of this year. We would talk and hang out, and I enjoyed her company. I never thought it would amount to anything, but always kept my options open. That, and I knew she had been good friends with this guy from a state she used to live in.

So time went on, its about March now, and we spent more and more time talking to each other, when we got into the discussion of who we were attracted to, and who we “liked.” I opened myself up, of course, because I had a slight inclination that she would say that she liked me. I kind of led her into the conversation, but eventually she told me she liked me. There was still that old friend from the state she “liked” but not as she used to. Never again as she used to.

So at about this time, march, we start to get somewhat serious. We begin exploring how much we like each other, if you could call it that, and by the begining of may, we bouth thought, and told each other that we were in love with each other. I didnt really go head over heels at first, but I asked and asked and asked about the “guy she used to like that lives in another state” and the constant reply was that he was just a friend, even though he thinks he still is in love with her. (also, she told me that she has told him that she didnt love him, but had been friends with him for several years, GOOD friends, close friends, Perhaps I should have seen it coming.) Anyways, I trusted her, and never once saw her as being this simple, fickle female who would purposely trick me. She was a good kid. So I let myself fall completely for her.

This went on for a couple of months, and we both had told each other the typical “I’ve never felt this way before about anyone” saying. It was a typical love story, I guess. Then in about the end of June, she went back to the state that she used to live in to see the guy she used to like, but only b/c he was paying for it, and b/c he was still a good friend. So I was somewhat upset, but trusted her. Then, I came across a letter from him, to her, about her trip. He outlined how excited he was to see her, blah blah, and she replied with the same, and how she couldnt wait to see him. I confronted her with this. It was pretty nasty. She admited what she said was misleading but that I wasnt really meant to see it anyways, and shouldnt have been a pry. She then told me “how can I trust you, if you can’t trust me?” Then went out to tell me that she didnt feel that way about that guy, but wouldnt be suprised if I wanted to end it. I talked to her and asked her how she felt. She admitted that she still loved me, and that nothing went on between her and him, and how he helped her out through the rough times of her past, and she could never forget that, but would never be more than friends with him.

So she goes to that state to see the guy she used to like, and tells me that nothing happened, although she indicated before (which I failed to mention) that her actual reason for going wasnt to see him, but her other friends…but spent most of her time there with him.

So she comes back and leaves for a week on another family trip, and when she comes back she tells me she wants to hold off getting serious, but was still in love with me. She just didnt want to rush into things. Thats smart, and I agreed with her.

Now its about the end of summer and we are talking. I had since then come across more letters in which she tells this guy how much she misses him, and he asks her “since when as someone told you that you were beautiful?” Of course she tells him it was the last time she saw him… ignoring the fact that I told her that every day. She still tells me that she has no feelings for this guy and that he is just a good friend.

One other thing happened. In August I left for college, and asked her to write me a letter about how much she loved me, and what she thought about me (actually 2 letters) and how things are different between her and me, and her and him. She actually brought up the idea, and had no problem with it. She has yet to send me either letter.

That was the begining of August, I have gotten no letters, but only a few emails and TWO phone calls. This didnt bother me as much, because she had moved cities to help her dad out who was starting a new business, and it was long distance. That didnt stop her before with me or the other guy, but maybe it is now. after all they just moved. She said she was working a lot. This I believed. In her last phone call, which was about the 25th of september, we talk, and she says “oh I will call you much more now because I can and I still know I have to write those letters! I will!” Okay so im hopefull still. I ask her “I want to know how you feel for me.” she laughs and says okay ill call you tonight and tell you exactly how I feel (in a voice that led me to believe that she still loved me) the call never came. Since then I have “assumed” that shes just been busy. I even sent her an email that she got and read asking her to be frank with me, and she said she has just been busy, but still doesnt haev the same feelings for the guy in the state she used to live in.

I have connections, im not as stupid as you think. You’ve been calling him every day, if not every other day. You email him more than me, and even though its sadistic, I have friends who told me that you send him letters. Yet you still have no feelings for him, huh? WHAT THE HELL?

Okay, so its obvious she doesnt love me anymore, and I question if she ever truely did because of this other guy she used to like. Maybe it was him who was more competitive (he tells her he loves her on a consistant basis…according to her she says she doesnt love him and he knows that…supposively) But maybe I was jsut naive? I thought I saw it coming, but you see I rationalized things. Shes just a nice person. Doesnt mean anything. Then I confront her, and in a huge arguement she tells me she loves me, and that she was sorry and huge thing about trust (the letter incident) and we made up.

I should have known.

So answer me fellow dopers, is she cruel? or all women this cruel? Or am I naive? Id like to think Im not THIS naive because of the prior incidents, and how Ive continuously confronted her, but WHY THE HELL CANT SHE BE HONEST WITH ME? Or does she love me? probably not, but Id like your guys’ comment / response.

2

Gee, Pathros, that’s kind of rough for you.

Maybe you might want to, I don’t know, try going out with guys…

3

No, thats not funny. This thread isnt about that though, so lets not get into that debate on this thread. Its a genuine question, and Im looking for an answer / advice / others cant rant too.

4

Okay, that was uncalled for (Bad kaylasdad! BAD!). My take, since you ask: you’re naive. Don’t worry about it, though; at your time of life, naivete is so prevalent as to almost be a given. If I’m right in assuming that her age is not a generation apart from yours, she’s probably not exactly a paragon of certainty and self-confidence either.

5

I dunno. I think kay had a point (even if he himself disavows it). For the soul reason, you titled your thread “Why are WOMEN cruel”.

Well you’re certainly naive if you think that. In actuality, people are cruel. For us herosexuals it’s not difficult to paint the opposite sex as particularly cruel, 'cuz it the oppposite sex that usually breaks our heart (I don’t know how homosexuals deal with this).
But in fact both sexes are equally cruel- or equally confused. And confused might explain why she’s having such a hard time being honest with you.
Women arn’t cruel. Love is cruel.

6

I’m a little confused as to your current situation with this woman. Are you currently going out with her? If so break it off.

If not, better still, do your best to forget about her.

Women are no more cruel than men, but when still learning about relationships, emotions, and ethics, all of us have the potential for cruelty.

BIG WARNING SIGN! She tells you openly that she is using this guy’s emotions. Forget the issue of whether or not she is telling you the truth. Forget even the issue of how she is treating this poor other guy (although you should assume that she thinks and speaks of you in precisely the same manner when you are away at school). The real issue here is that she is so utterly blind to ethics that she has no shame in telling you that she is using this guy. Meanwhile, you are so flattered at being chosen over this guy, you ignore her cruelty to other people.

Is she evil? No.

errr… probably not. She is confused by immature and conflicting emotions and inexperienced in making hard choices. She isn’t lying to you; she doesn’t know the truth herself. One thing is certain, for the forseeable future, she is not worth any effort. Find some other people to date. Maybe, ten years from now or so, she will have figured herself out.

Maybe.

Most of us do. Until then, she is not a good investment. Frankly, I hear a lot of obsession in your post, but not much affection. Think hard about your own feelings.

7

It’s not that women are cruel, it’s the human race that makes us do stupid things. Look at it this way. She tried hard to deny her feelings towards this other guy (possibly) and you were the convenient way to attempt to do that. Men and women do that, alike.

Was it fair? Possibly not but you have to learn to read the signs and you had some from the get-go. Chances are if people are chiming on about another person when you start to get involved you are either going to the saviour from heartache or the baggage keeper. In this instance you were the baggage keeper, you were the one that helped her through this while she tried to push herself into liking you more than her heart felt. Unfortunately, her heart led her back to the other guy.

It’s not a woman thing, it’s a human thing. Men do it too.

Don’t put blame, it just wasn’t meant to be. If she comes back to you, then use a logical approach and try not to let your heart get hurt again. But it’s not fair to classify a group of people (aka) women in that manner. We are all as different as night and day. We come in 3 billion shapes, sizes, intelligence, loving or hating thoughts, etc…

8

A CO Springs doper! thanks for the advice, and you are right. The guy in question actually cheated on her. Thanks for the posts, they have been really helpful…but im still looking for answers? Probably because I really AM naive.

9

Couple of things that concern me.

You sound like me when I was 18. That’s not a good thing.

First, how did you run across letters from him to her? Be honest. You searched for them, didn’t you?

Yes, she pined for this far-off fella. You, in your heart of hearts, knew this all along. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t have pestered her about it. A little hint, pressing her about it didn’t make you look good in her eyes. More likely, it made you look like an insecure pup and made the other fella look that much better. The same is true for the letters.
The woman does not yet know what she wants. Neither do you. Hell, you’re not supposed to at that age. Consider this a learning experience for future relationships. Now you know that 1) we do not interogate women about former loves. It’s counter-productive. 2) we do not read letters not addressed to us, 3) we do not ask women to reassure us. And 4) most importantly, if we do not trust the woman, we have no basis for a relationship, and should walk away before it gets ugly.

10

actually, thats more believable than truth. What really happened, was she let me read them. We were doing this whole trust thing, and she let me read all her emails and other letters, (as I let her read mine) she just didnt realize that I read those as well.

You are right about the questioning her past love. I guess, that would be where my age comes in, and the fact that this is my first love. I find it hard not to, though, because I didnt want her to still have those feelings and not tell me. (that will probably be a recurring thing with me in my future relationships, but hopefully I will move past it) It also was an issue because she brought him up a lot as well, and she talked to him as regularly as me. So, of course it would be a concern, but I did not go up on a regular basis and ask “HEY DO YOU LIKE HIM STILL?” No, we would be on a similar conversation, and at a point she would mention him I would say, “so what ARE your feelings for him?” That doesnt justify it, but its not as bad as it sounds in the OP.
honest question: Why do we not ask women to reassure us? Isnt that the point of relationships? to strengthen and support one another in love? Or is that love supposed to be enough and you arent supposed to “need” that verbal reassurance?

11

Well Pathros,

Here’s a little of my past so you can decide that it’s not that ALL women are like this, it’s just some that might be more fragile or more prone to take on one mate and decide he’s all that’s for her…oh and it goes for men too.

I am 33, never been married. I have had a lot of relationships and I can tell you only two in my life were what I would call love. The second one was a similar issue to what you have now except he just wasn’t ready to committ.

It’s the first guy, I will call him Joe for the sake of the his privacy.

Joe and I fell in love when I was in high school. He asked me to marry him, even after some typical couple BS. He was not in high school but I know in my heart I was in love with him.

I moved with him in another state while he was in the Coast Guard. We started talking one night and I found out that he had cheated on me. He wanted to be brutally honest with me, to his detriment. I called my father the next day to wire me some money so I could go home. I drove home a week later, 25 hours drive time, just barely 18.

I never forgot him, even for what he did to me, he was the one I should have been with, I know this in my heart. I know this to this day. He got in touch with me about a month ago or so and my heart has never felt the same. I had another love that didn’t last but in 15 years, Joe was the only one that ever captured and still holds my heart.

Will we ever get back together? Who knows. He lives across the country and has children. His now ex-wife got pregnant by another man so I think he finally understands why my heart felt I had to leave him. He got a taste, if not stronger, of what I went through.

Is it fair of me to put all my eggs in one basket knowing all the while I needed to get on with my life? No, it really wasn’t until we got in contact again that I realized that my love for him never faded. It’s never been any less than it was the day before he told me that he was fucking around on me.

Am I setting myself up for more disappointment? Probably but at 33 I am not looking for just a guy to settle with. I would rather be alone than be one that I can’t love with all my heart. Maybe that feeling will pass but it’s been so damn long I am not sure it will pass.

Sexually speaking, I have no desire for it at the moment. I have gone through the one nighters, the four month flings, etc…but I know in my heart that unless someone really can steal my heart I am not out to find another man. And at this stage in my life, sex means more than a fuck at dawn…Ya know?

What it comes down to is her heart. Her heart feels she needs him. It may be a very wrong situation for her but since I don’t know her I can’t pass judgement. But it’s possible that she really loves this other guy despite what he did. I cried for over a year over my relationship with Joe. It’s probably very unhealthy but he was the love that set my world a flame. He was the one that gave me love, honest (kinda) true love. I listen to his voice on the phone and look at pictures of him and I can’t get over how my heart feels.

I will know more next spring when I head out to see him (part of a trip to see family and some dopers.)

Hope that helps. It’s not you, it’s not her, I honestly think she’s either really stupid or her heart knows something that I can identify with.

12

Thank you Techchick, that helped me see things. One thing that she told me was that there were things she could tell him, that she didnt feel comfortable telling me. Maybe that should have been a sign that she didnt truely love me, and perhaps had feelings for him still. Not to mention the time she spent with him, and the fact that he never really left her life. I guess her telling me that she loved me, was her being insecure over him, and not wanting to admit things would ever be the same with this other guy. She still says she doesnt forsee it, but I don’t know. I don’t think I have the experience TO know.

As for one thing you said…

Im not trying to sound like a troll or a jerk here, but I am a strict mormon, and so is this girl. So would be and are all the girls I would ever date, or marry. Sex was never an issue because a devout mormon would wait before marriage. (perhaps I should mention im an only child born to a single mother who had a love life similar to yours… so I really can symphathize with what you went though) The LDS church puts A LOT of pressure to get married, and when LDS people date, it is always in the back of their heads. Maybe that explains some of my naivete, I don’t know.

13

Pathros,

I didn’t mean to be crude but it kinda sets the tone for it all.

I used to work for devote Mormons…giggle, sorry but even the devoted can slip. Seen in it first hand. :wink:

Anyhow, it sounds to me like you had the signs and you can pick them up the next time you meet a woman you are interested in. Don’t put it up to being naive, chalk it up to experience.

We all have to go through the bumps in the road to find the right person. Sometimes we miss the mark by miles. We think we know we are in love and forget that the other person may not feel that same exact way.

So, rather than beat yourself up over being naive or her for still loving this other guy, understand that we all have a learning curve. Some less, some more. But it shows promise when a guy can admit to wanting more communication. I have had that problem in the past of men not able to communicate so let it be known that as a woman, communication is important and (honestly) most men can’t communicate feelings all that well. Not all but most if not many.

14

I agree with betenoir, it is love that’s cruel.

In my own personal experience, I’ve found that sometimes, you really can’t help who you fall in love with.

My story:
I loved a girl. She loved me. I am as certain of this as I am that water is wet. We were young at the time (still are, depending on your definition of “young”), and I was going to college across the Pacific (school was in California, she was in Hawaii).

Despite the fact that she was in love with me, I was no match for her close friend that was “courting” her in my absence (though I put up a good fight, considering). This was understandable enough, as though she wasn’t a high maintenance girl, she still required more than a long-distance relationship could offer.

Moral of the story: Women aren’t perfect. They have needs, emotional and physical (“physical” should be interpreted as more than just sexual intimacy), and they are fully capable of falling in love with more than one person who fulfill these needs. It is not, as far as I can tell, anything personal.

My advice: let her go. Out of your heart if not out of your life. I’m not saying to give up on your love for her entirely (though it might not be a good idea - I’m not the biggest advocate for LD relationships), but don’t let it turn ugly. That’s the worst thing you can do if you truly value your friendship.

Just my two cents, of course. YMMV.

15

What the funny thing is, is that we (her and I) almost pride ourselves on our ability to communicate. Thats why we talked about her feelings for him. Because we told each other a lot, and didnt want to hide anything.

One thing I forgot to mention. She told me she liked me first. She told me she loved me first. I think that one of the other dopers could have been right in that it was an obsession: I was in love with being in love. It just didnt feel like that.

As for those mormons who slip? You’re right, it happens, but its not something I want to happen.

Thanks again, techchick. :slight_smile:

16

Pathos, as I try to see your situation from your girlfriend’s eyes, I can’t see that she was intentionally cruel to you. In fact, I think most of her actions were the result of her caring for you.

She knew you didn’t want her to still have feelings for the Other Guy, so she denied having those feelings to you and to herself. She knew you needed more reassurance, so she opened up and let you read her letters.

She could not eliminate the feelings for the Other Guy entirely, no matter how much she denied them to you and to herself.

You were pushing her to choose: him or me! Well, maybe she wasn’t really ready to make that decision. As long as OG was distant enough to be out of her life, it was easier for her to pretend that she cared only for you. You can’t force a person to be faithful to you.

One very important word of advice, my friend: do not play private eye with someone you love, no matter how compelling your suspicions, unless you are ready to throw in the towel and end the relationship. Nothing will drive a woman away faster than to discover that a man has been monitoring her phone calls and letters, tracking her movements, etc. (Any woman who wouldn’t be offended by this behavior is a woman you should avoid.) I have been through this BS myself: I no longer carry a purse because I can’t stand the thought that my husband would search through it. I hate it when he opens my mail. I hate it when he checks the mileage on my car to see if I’ve been just to the grocery store, like I’d told him.

If my husband had engaged in any of these practices when we were still dating, I would have dropped him at once, no matter how much I cared for him. As it is now, his rationale is that if I have nothing to hide, I shouldn’t mind his snooping. Well, I don’t have anything to hide, but I still despise his snooping. It’s humiliating; it’s almost like being raped.

Pathos, this girl is not the one for you (at this point in your lives anyway). But rest assured that she was not trying to hurt you. She was just too young and free to settle down. Let her get some experience and life lessons under her belt (the same goes for you) and maybe you’ll develop a relationship later that is deeper and more mature. Or maybe your experience with this girl will help you in a relationship with someone else.

17

Tricky question.

Short answer: Chicks find confidence attractive and asking for reassurance smacks of insecurity. Insecurity is not attractive.

Long answer: Yes, one of the primary aspects of a relation is that mutual emotional support. And that is a good thing. And there should overt signs of that support from both parties. Sometimes these signs are verbal, sometimes not. You need to be able to recognize the non-verbal ones. Asking for that reassurance in times of distress is not a bad thing. Continually asking for that reassurance is called being needy. I could be wrong, but it kind of sounds like that was what was going on.

18

You are young. Feelings are really funny while you are young. I think its the hormones.

I had similar experiences where men treated me similarly - and, I hate to admit, some where I didn’t treat the men so well either. Its hard not to be selfish when you are young - and its hard to recognize it for what it is - especially when the pressures of being a “good person” are on you - whether those pressures are from church, your parents, or some ideal that you will “save the world.”

Recognizing the external pressure to get married is an important thing - now work on keeping it external. Go into relationships with the thought that “we will see what develops” instead of “this could be the person I spend the rest of my life with and have kids and a dog and we’ll name the first child Patrick…”

It does get better. People usually stop playing these games in their mid-twenties - and anyone who continues can be written off as not worth your time (instead of the current immature, but who knows). Too bad the LDS doesn’t have a tradition of a period of celebacy - not sexual celebacy mind you but emotional celebacy.

BTW, I met my husband in high school. We didn’t start dating for ten years. If we would have dated any earlier, one of us would have blown it.

19

Pathros, I’ve given alot of thought about this over the years. I’ve seen good friends (both guys and gals) put through much and act in ways that seem counterproductive. Over the years I’ve come up with these ideas that seem to match the world.

People think of love as giving yourself in all ways to the person you love. When you give your love and seem to get it back then that person becomes part of your support system and you start to confide in them and rely on them.

In reality, I think, one person does this while the other is less certain. He/she likes the other but is not sure. Now, when you give your love completely to her, like you did, she now knows she has you but, since not certain, will keep looking elsewhere knowing that you are a good ‘back-up’ plan. Who knows, you might be the one but you might not.

Pathros, you should not fall for a girl that isn’t falling for you. You fell for someone while she still had a ‘boyfriend’ elsewhere meaning that while she said she loved you, she didn’t really deeply, truely love you. The sad fact, Pathros, is that she knew she had you which naturally decreases her interest in you. That last statement is a sad fact about people but it is true. She had to put little or no effort into maintaining the relationship because you did. You were pleasing her and meeting her needs but was it given back? Truely?

Now, if she had to go after you somewhat and put some energy into the relationship then she would have been thinking about you, about what you thought of her. If she put some energy into ‘getting’ you then she would have more interest in you. It’s really sad that you can’t present yourself to the one you love, profess that love and have that person accept or decline it for what it is. Human nature is not that way and it doesn’t go away in your mid twenties either!

What I would do if I was you would be to start to decrease your contacts with her. Don’t break it off and still treat her with interest and respect but pull back some and see if she misses you and starts to initiate more contacts with you. If she does, great! That means she will be thinking of you and wondering if you’re still interested which will make her more interested and also she will be thinking less of the other guy . Just keep up that bit of wondering.

Don’t be cold, be warm, friendly and upbeat when you talk just make her wonder why your not going full bore anymore. If she doesn’t respond, then you never had her truely.
I’m new here and like this place. Pathros, if you found what I said helpful, interesting or even disagree, please respond. Even though I like this place, I will stop posting unless I’m acknowledged. I feel the outsider here. (how’s that for no confidence!!!)

Clarissa

20

spooge:

This is an excellent point. Men are notoriously bad at picking up on nonverbal cues, and women are notorious for assuming their nonverbal cues are effective. Men want concrete, yes-or-no answers: do you love me? Are you faithful to me? A woman’s true answers to these questions will be found in her actions and in her eyes.

Asking for obvious reassurance, except on rare occasions, is a bad idea. If she does love you, she will have given you hundreds of nonverbal cues to let you know, so asking point blank for reassurance makes her feel you’ve ignored her attempts to make you feel loved. If she doesn’t love you (or if she doesn’t love you the way you want her to love you) she will have given you nonverbal cues to lead you to that conclusion; asking for reassurance may prompt her to reassure you because she cares enough about you to not want to hurt your feelings.

No one, man or woman, is impressed by a partner who needs constant reassurance. If you must ask for reassurance, one or both of the following is true: you are too insecure (and need to work on yourself) and/or your partner doesn’t really feel for you the way you wish her/him to feel.