Why do you think he/she didn't call back?

Hi, Maeglin! Some of us love ass’ ears! :slight_smile: Seriously, what if the response is:

"Well, the truth is – you’re a cyclops. Yes, your one eye is big and beautiful and brown but . . . it’s in the middle of your forehead. It squicks me out. I can’t get past it, I’m sorry. "

Not much you can do about it, right? So what use is the feedback if you can’t do anything about it? And why is it incumbent upon the dating prospect to do you the favor of pointing out even correctible shortcomings, when that would be such an uncomfortable conversation?

I once dated – briefly – a man with mossy teeth. His otherwise acceptable hygiene apparently didn’t extend to yearly teeth cleanings. I tried to tell myself it was a minor thing, I went out with him two more times to try to get past it – but I couldn’t. It was icky. I couldn’t even bring myself to kiss him. I’m sure I could have greatly improved his dating prospects by telling him that he needed to hie himself to a dental hygienist, but you know what? I wasn’t willing to have that connversation with a guy I didn’t know well.

[QUOTE=Jodi]
First of all, the question you are positing now – several dates, several phone calls, maybe even intimacy – is not the same as the question the OP’er posited in the OP, which was “You go on a date, you think things go well, you like the person, you think they like you…then they never call back.” Your first post in this thread was in response to the OP and not to the very different situation you yourself have now theorized. That first response sounded hostile and blaming of the woman, to a degree that was out of proportion to the situation in the OP (woman doesn’t call back after one date). Now, you can consign me to the Man-Haters’ Club if you want, but it was not unreasonable for people reading this thread to assume you were responding to the OP and not to an entirely different and obviously much less defensible situation, like the one you’re theorizing now. Several dates + several calls + intimacy != one date.

Second of all, the most defensible reason to “string someone along” IMO is the hope that things will improve. He’s a nice guy, he’s not unattractive, we have a lot in common, why isn’t he ringing my bell? Maybe if we go out a couple more times a better attraction will develop . . . nope, three dates later, still nothing there. In that circumstance, I agree with you, to just drop someone (stop returning calls) is harsh and a frank “sorry, I’m just not interested in seeing you anymore” would be better. But people of both sexes avoid conflict and avoid unpleasant conversations so IMO someone who calls four or five times and doesn’t get a call back needs to buy a clue. If you want to call that cowardice, that’s fine; that’s compeletely in line with the “I’m better off without her anyway! She doesn’t know what she’s missing!” school of thought, which is IMO probably the least wounding way to get over the fact that someone you like apparently just doesn’t like you.

So I do think it’s a matter of how much of a “relationship” we’re talking about. IMO, one to three dates, that are not hot’ n’ heavy, not multi-hour “we’re really clicking” talk-fests, I don’t think a guy is entitled to an “I’m just not interested in you” conversation. In fact, I think that conversation in those circumstances would be kind of mean: making explicit something that shouldn’t need to be explicit. And believe me, continuing to call to demand an answer or to try to exhibit that you are really really interested is not attractive, it’s stalkerish.

I understand people who get the “Pass, not interested” responsible would like to know why. Certainly if I guy that I like doesn’t like me I wonder why. But that’s true of any “audition” process from dating to job-interviewing to trying out for a play or a team. But the truth is, if the answer is “no” then the answer is “no” and the why of it won’t change that. In this context especially, there’s no help in receiving that feedback, since it’s likely to be something you either cannot change (like how you look) or shouldn’t change (like your personality), and attraction is so subjective that if you did omit something because one person didn’t like it (“You talk to much”), you could easily find the next person didn’t like you because you didn’t do that very same thing (“You don’t talk enough, you just sit there”).

When are you entitled to a reason? When we’re talking about a break-up. That presumes the existence of a relationship. One to three dates is not a relationship. Even for a real break-up, you’re not entitled to anything more than “I’m sorry but I don’t want to see you anymore.” Harsh and completely suck-tastic? Yes. But long agonizing reasons for all your short-comings won’t make it any less so.

Maybe you do. But then again…maybe you like them.

I understand your point, but I think it’s safe to say that it really doesn’t matter a damn what those half dozen people think about them, only what you think.

Personalities are painfully difficult to change. It takes time and effort, and you have to really want to. And you have to dislike the quality you’re trying to change, or it won’t work. Because why would you go out of your way to change something about yourself that you like? And wouldn’t you resent the person who asked you to? Maybe some day down the road you may decide you don’t like those ears so much, after all and work to get rid of them. But it should be on your terms, and in your time.

What if it’s not personality-related? I had a roommate for a summer up in Manhattan a couple of years ago—not you, Maegs!—who mentioned, in an honest-but-not-savage way in a course of conversation one day, that I tended to wear shirts that didn’t quite fit because they were one size too big. (I’d been reflexively buying XLs my adult life, reasoning that that was the appropriate size for someone who was 6’3" and 195 lbs.) She said that she’d seen me in one or two things that were smaller and fit better, and that there was a world of difference in how attractive I was. I’d never thought of it before; it just didn’t occur to me. I thought I looked fine. So I started dressing better, felt much more confident, looked better to more people (I assume), and had better romantic results.

Lesson: sometimes the honesty is about things you can, and want to, change.

The lesson I get from that is: It’s good to have friends.

I think some people are expecting dates or potential dates to fill the roles that friends and relations should be filling. People who care about you have a reason to be honest and to couch their honesty in reasonable terms.

Why depend on someone who has no interest in you to tell you what your flaws are? That seems like a lot of dependence on someone with nothing invested.

Well, she was a date or potential date—again, not you, Maegs!—but that’s a different story. :slight_smile: I do have to ask this, though:

Do you really think your friends are going to tell you if your clothes don’t fit or if your haircut is unflattering or if you tend to slouch unbecomingly or eat noisily? Maybe it’s different for women, but as a guy I certainly don’t expect my friends to be honest with me about those sorts of things, even if I were to ask.

Gadarene, I don’t think that’s really a great example, because for the most part, if the ONLY thing that a woman doesn’t like about you is the way you dress, she’ll keep seeing you until she feels comfortable enough to say something (assuming that the way you dress is simply not especially flattering, as opposed to completely inappropriate, which is a different thing). And if you’re amenable, she’ll then stick around at least long enough to do a complete makeover. We love us a fashion fixer-upper.

I don’t know if that’s necessarily true. First impressions—and the first through third dates are one unending string of first impressions—matter a lot, and ill-fitting clothing may well create enough of a negative/unappealing vibe (along the lines of alice in wonderland’s “you said that I looked ‘Hawt!’ when you picked me up, but the way you said it made it sound creepy even though from a different guy it would have been ok” thing) as to put the kibosh on any longer-term prospects in their mind. You’re telling me dress doesn’t matter as far as you deciding whether or not you’re romantically attracted to someone the first time or two you meet them? What about hygiene?

Of course it matters, but again… there’s a world of difference between wearing your (perfectly nice and appropriate) shirt a size too big, and being dressed badly.

But either way, someone who’s not interested in you as a result of your bad/ill-fitting dress (or your failure to shave evenly, or your too-long haircut) could—not necessarily should, but could—inform you about it so you wouldn’t have the same issue with the next person.

Dress? Not at all, really. Well, assuming he doesn’t show up wearing hipwaders, a tutu and a cowboy hat. I mean, the “Boyfriend Makeover” is well known in women circles.

Hygiene? Well yah - if the guy is smelly or has hairy teeth or something, that’s pretty off putting.

But an ill fitting shirt? Total non-issue. I can’t imagine a woman worth going on a second date with that would reject a man ONLY because his shirt was too big. You did mention that when you swaped the shirts out for better fitting ones you were more confident. I think that has a lot more to do with your increased dating success than your attire.

I guess I just don’t know if it’s as conscious a thing as y’all are making it out to be. I feel like sometimes, even when I can identify the thing that turned me off about a person–e.g., “that shade of shirt was the wrong one to wear on a warm summer night; you can see her sweat stains”—and even when they’re really nice otherwise, it doesn’t necessarily prevent that turn-off from, y’know, turning me off. It’s how chemistry works sometimes.

But why would they do that? Surely they know it will make you feel sort of bad, even if it improves your chances down the line. That’s the sort of delicate conversation that needs to be had between family and friends, not between near-strangers. When friends and family gently explain how your future appearance can be improved – thus inevitably highlighting that in their opinion, your current appearance is not all that great – you know they are acting out of concern and affection, because they are your family and friends. But why would a relative stranger inform you of that? To help you? Or to hurt your feelings? Your friends and family have some investment in your future romantic success; a stranger or mere acquiantence has none.

I’m not going to offer critical feedback to someone I don’t know well; who I don’t know will appreciate it; who doesn’t know me well enough to recognize I’m trying to be helpful even if they don’t appreciate it; and who for all I know would be hurt by it, maybe very hurt by it. That’s not a comfortable conversation for me, and unless I know someone very well, I don’t think its incumbent upon me to have an uncomfortable conversation with a stranger just to help them out down the road. Not to mention, looking at it from the other side, if a guy presumed to critique me in order to “generously” assist me with future dates, I would not appreciate it at all, it would piss me off. I wouldn’t do to someone else something I wouldn’t personally appreciate.

To me, if it’s something easily fixable – spinach in the teeth, fly unzipped – sure, you mention it, so that the other person doesn’t die of embarrassment when they discover the problem later. But anything beyond that – even suggesting a Tic-Tac for coffee breath – I’m not going there. And if stinky breath is the reason I don’t date a guy again, I will never in a million years tell him so. That’s a conversation that will make me uncomfortable, if not him, and I don’t owe him that much. His mom can tell him instead.

Sure, but this is why you don’t bother to catalog the other party’s faults, not why you do, right?

Like I said, I’m not saying that they should…only that they could. And that they’re arguably—heck, almost certainly—in a better position to identify the things that would improve your chances down the line than your friends and loved ones would be.

But maybe if they hadn’t worn turquoise on an 85 degree night, the chemistry wouldn’t have been blunted, and now we’d be married or something. And maybe if I were to tell them about the turquoise thing, they’ll pick a different shade next time and marry the next guy. :slight_smile:

I dunno…still strikes me as a personal preference thing (turquoise? really?).

As for the hygiene thing…well, call me high maintenance, but I just don’t see that I should have to tell someone they shouldn’t show up for our date smelling like week old sweat drowned in old spice and a side of garlic & onion breath. If I have to tell someone that, then he’s not the kind of guy I want to be with, anyway. Nor do I want to see his apartment.

There’s just no satisfying women sometimes!

I once had an otherwise great date with a guy who was written off by the end of the evening, mostly for being a bad kisser, but partly because he had (at least at that moment) foul breath, and he refused a mint.

Hey, no one is minty fresh *all * the time, and I wouldn’t expect him to be after we’d been drinking for three hours (I certainly wasn’t). So I popped a mint, and asked him if he’d like one. And he said no. People, NEVER refuse a mint.

“Them dam wimmens! Can’t live with 'em, can’t shewt 'em!” :rolleyes: