I’d say that, in this context, the phrase “nice guy” is heavily loaded. It doesn’t mean “a fine upstanding member of the community who is successful at his work and is well-liked by most people.” It means “desperate to please” which is a different kettle of fish altogether.
Outside this narrow context, “nice” has a much less negative meaning. For instance:
Check out my new ride..
Nice!.
Hey SusanStoHelit, I’m curious about something…when you said this:
…what stage of the relationship are you talking about? I hope you’re not talking about the beginning where you’ve been out on a few dates, but it almost sounds you are. I don’t think I’d ask for an explanation…and I certainly can’t imagine telling a girl I’ve been out with a couple times that I’m willing to change for her. Do a lot of guys actually do this? I don’t understand why it is that 90% of the time, in dating scenarios, it seems like the woman is the one doing the choosing, and it’s a foregone conclusion that the guy is interested and trying to ‘win her over’. Makes men look desperate. I don’t want to hijack the thread, just wanted to make the observation.
Self-described nice guy here. I would say that being a nice guy helps, but the key for me was being a nice guy with self-confidence.
Women tended to like me a lot more when I put the two together. But I still lapse into self-pity and it will annoy my girlfriend. Apologizing for feeling sorry about yourself is not a good remedy either.
I’m talking about less than 5 dates. Maybe I’ve just been lucky, but yes, men do this. I should qualify: some men do this, possibly a minority, but those men have made up at least two-thirds of the dates I’ve had, and my girlfriends run into this often as well.
Yes, it does. We had a discussion about this about a month back.
Might be worth getting into…if it isn’t a) done to death or b) impossible to generalize effectively about.
I have a longstanding prejudice that women’s chemistry for men is a lot more complex than men’s for women. One salient difference:
Other person’s obvious attraction to you
For men: Strong positive
For women: Strong negative
Anything to this?
I’ve never noticed that nice guys have trouble getting dates. I’m a really nice guy and I got dates with ease.
In my experience, a lot of guys who have trouble getting dates who SAY they’re nice, aren’t, or their problem is that they’re shy, or dress badly, or don’t act confident.
What she said. Seriously, I’m SICK Of the “nice guy” rants.
BTW, what about “nice girls?” I’m a nice girl. I also have a zero success rate in the dating game. Does that mean that guys don’t like nice girls?
It works both ways.
Fortunately, Whack-a-Mole, you seem to be a real nice guy, not what we call the “Nice GuyTM”. So basically, you don’t have to go down that path-don’t get into the pattern of thinking you’re a “Nice GuyTM” and then start thinking that’s your problem. Because then you might actually become that guy.
Just give it time. Romance and dating is such a crap shoot. It seems completely random to me-nothing is guaranteed.
(Oh, and I’d definitely take Tobey Maguire over Colin Ferrell. Not just because I find Tobey extremely sexy. But because I HATE Colin Ferrell, and find him incredibly annoying and not at all attractive).
So hang in there and good luck. (I’d give you a “how you doin’?” except I’m a cat person who isn’t all that crazy about dogs).
Not really. If a really hot guy comes up to me in the park to ask if I’ll hold his Terry Pratchett book while he cleans up after his dog (books! animals! social responsibility!) and then goes on to compliment me and ask me out, I’d melt like buttah.
So obvious attraction: strong positive (as long as you can take a hint if it isn’t returned)
obvious desperation: strong negative.
Well put, SusanStoHelit. A strong positive from a woman isn’t usually a bad thing, but the first hint of desperation tends to send me running.
And as for chemistry, I’m not sure you can define it, but it definitely exists, and you can sense or feel it when it’s there. It’s that thing that makes you excited to see/hear from someone. When it’s there it’s great, but when it’s not, the most you’ll be is friends.
Did I mention I have two cats as well? 
I don’t know if it’s true or that such relationships stand out as absurd. I’ve seen some really special (and attractive) women date/marry guys who openly treat them like doormats. I’ve talked with guys who deliberately do this because it attracts women. It’s not like the women I know (like this) come from bad homes. Just the opposite.
One of life’s mysteries.
I agree 100% but where SusanStoHelit part ways is in how long you will wait to see if that happens.
Her: 10 minutes
Me: A few dates to see if the spark is in there. If it is then I’ll go longer to see if it develops.
There are a few women in my life who I initially met and dating or sex wasn’t even remotely on my mind (co-worker for example). Over the course of weeks or months as I slowly got to know the person the realization came that this is someone I could dig going out with.
For some reason I really hate the notion that a woman has made up her mind about me before I get two sentences out. What if I had a bad hair day or was hung over or my dog died that day or something? A fair shake is all I ask and if it ain’t there after a few tries feel free to kick me to the curb and move on and no hard feelings.
Well, Whack-a-Mole, I’m not necesarily saying it’s true, but I’ll bet he’s closer to the truth than he thinks when a friend of mine says:
“In the first two minutes a woman won’t decide if she’ll sleep with you…but she definitely decides if she WON’T sleep with you.”
Not exactly what we’re talking about here, but the idea is the same.
Ms Cyros here:
I married a nice guy. When I met him, I was sure there was no future. We became friends. He asked me out. I said no. Repeatedly. And then somehow, I realized, he was the one. There was spark where once there was none. After two years of telling him to give up. Go figure.
Just wanted to chime in that I’ve always had a thing for the underdog. I’m attracted to goofy and shy and geeky and weird. I’d pick Tobey Maguire over Colin Farrell anyday. I think Kevin Smith is sexy. I have a little crush on Edward Norton.
I’ve never really gone for the bad guy / pretty boy type (although I have been burned by bad guys in disguise). And the few women I know who did go for that type outgrew it. Really.
Hang in there.
/Ms Cyros
Hmm. I’m getting an interesting mixed message out of all this:
It’s well to remember that a loving relationship between two people, like many of life’s blessings, is more apt to come your way when you focus on other things. Unfortunately our nature is to reify love, treat it like a thing that you can go get when you feel the hunger. Sad. You may be all hot for love, you see, but love doesn’t give a wet shit about you.
Maybe what more of us need is lessons in life-affirming aloneness. I don’t think that long-term singlehood has to be a state of desperate stagnation, although the temptation to turn it into that is very strong, somehow.
Finally: What is it that rankles women so about the desperate male? Is he a grating nuisance? Is he potentially threatening? Or is what women hate about him that he is just - I really hate this word - weak?
For me (not speaking for my gender, here, but just for me), it’s the sense of pressure. The responsibility of it all. Look, some days I can barely muster the strength to get out of bed. I can’t be responsible for making someone else happy all the time. I need someone who can be happy all on his own without me. Not someone who’s going to protect me, because that’s no good either, but someone who is independent, and who respects my independence. And if he makes me mixtapes, too, that would be great.
Whack-a-Mole - If you’re asking about this girl in particular, then nothing we can tell you about Nice Guys will help. It’s got nothing to do with nice, and it’s really got nothing to do with you. Some girls get perilously attracted to someone who’s nothing but bad for them. Even though they date someone else and seem to be happy, the moment Mr. Wrong crooks his finger, they’ll come running. I don’t know what it is, and I don’t know why, but that’s just the way it works. Maybe at some point she’ll come to her senses, but right now, there’s nothing you can do. There was never anything you could have done. You just got caught in the crossfire.
Now now, none of that shrug-shoulder stuff! What would Cecil say? “Life’s mysteries? Pfaugh. I laugh at life’s mysteries. Let’s get some tools and start banging on those babies!”
The first tool I find coming to hand is sociology. Social conditioning plays a big part in how we construct sex roles. It ain’t always pretty! Even an “enlightened” female might have some pretty wack ideas about what it means to “be a man.” Like maybe he has to be a little controlling, a little scary, a little whatever. Or as belladonna put it upthread:
Recipe for heartbreak or Camille Paglia-like power-thru-submission? It’s anyone’s call, really. I tend to the former view myself, but then again, I’m vanilla and proud of it! 
Thanks. Now I can relate to that because it’s got nothing to do with what a man is or what a woman is – only what it is to be human. Would that it were all so bright-n-shiny rational as that!
Yeah…W-a-M, think what a feather in his cap it would be if he scored a “kill” in addition to bagging the babe - ie: if he got to you so badly you couldn’t let it go. That satisfaction is yours to give him. Don’t.
Exactly right, IMO
I used to be only nice guy… and some of the “clingy” aspects are certainly something I’ve done way too often and still do sometimes. I screwed up a nice dating thing recently by being too lacking in confidence since I was intimidated by going out with a very good looking girl !
After reading some stuff in the SMDB about dating and “nice” guys and David D’Angelo thingy… I notice how some of the times I was sucessful with women… were after being a bit obnoxious and cocky. My ex-GF started dating me even after saying that I had made way too many male chauvinist comments that first night she met me for example. A friend was attracted to me when I was being obnoxious in a party too… she just kept flirting even when her BF arrived at the party ! Everytime I’m not focusing on women… or my behaviour things flow more easily. Its the whole Alpha Male Bullshit… some women like it.
On the other hand… I’ve had a GF that hates Alpha Male behaviour… she is attracted only to the intelectual compatibility. So its a dangerous act to play sometimes…
Well… anyway some great stories and lessons in this thread…