So how are they defining themselves as “nice guys?” Simply by the virtue that they have never beaten a woman? Or raped? Or killed? If by “nice” they mean “banal,” then perhaps the label doesn’t match the description, but then we’re getting into semantics…
Near as I can tell, they’re defining themselves as being nice guys by virtue of having some semblence of civility. They don’t insult you and/or your friends. They don’t slap you on the ass and tell you to go fetch them a beer. They don’t make crude jokes or grab at your boobs in public. They don’t interrupt you when you talk.
Others go further and don’t do anything that doesn’t explicitly have your stamp of approval on it. It’s like they think if a little basic consideration for someone’s feelings and preferences is good, total slavish deference is better. They only watch the movies that you like, listen to the bands you like, eat the foods you like, wear the clothes you like, etc. They’re too timid to do or say or suggest anything they like because you might not like it and doing something you don’t like would make them not a nice guy. It’s like they’re not real people, but blank robots you can format to your specifications, a mirror that shows you only what it thinks you want to see. And they think that all those sacrifices that nobody ever asked them to make mean you ought to love them.
But people can’t love robots or mirrors. Not really. People can only truly love other people. Jerks aren’t good people, but at least they’re people, ya know?
As the great Ali G says, “Treat 'em rough, you get the muff”.
Note: this is NOT my personal approach, just a quote.
:mad: Can we PLEASE stop reinforcing this idiotic received wisdom that the way to any woman’s heart or other vital organs is to act like a shit?
Honestly, now. Is ANYBODY, male or female, alpha or epsilon, going to learn anything positive from having that drummed into them over and over again?
You wanna moan, go to the Pit. (I did. Made a MAAYUN o’ me.) This is IMHO, so yes, opinions are OK, but I definitely sense a hang-dog, whadya-gonna-do resignation out there. Not attractive, fellas. You’re spinning your wheels. Do it too long and you’ll either dig yourselves in deeper or run out of gas entirely.
The way folks keep coming back to the Nice Guy question, maybe it oughta be in Great Debates next time… :dubious:
The thing is, it’s not entirely idiotic. Sometimes, it works surprisingly well. Indeed, I’ve had women confess to me that they tend to be attracted to men who acts like jackasses, and that they like the dangerous aspect of these men.
As I’ve said before, I agree that saying “Nice guys finish last” is an oversimplification. By the same token though, saying “Women don’t like jerks” is not entirely true either. I am just as critical of one viewpoint as I am of the other.
What I object to is the attitude of some guys (nice or not) who can’t see any middle ground between Nice Guy and Asshole: “Well, she didn’t like me when I was nice to her. She went off with that mouth-breather over there. Therefore, I should act like an asshole if I want to get women.”
Yes, some women like emotionally unavailable jackasses, just like some women like spineless looser nice guys. Those women aren’t healthy, and you don’t want to date them anyway. What most women prefer is someone in between the two. In other words: not a nice guy, not a mean guy, just a guy - your standard-model, basic man.
That is a very good point, SusanStoHelit. I think the problem, however, is that there are a lot more women who prefer one extreme over the other. That is, there are a whole lot of women who are thrilled by arrogant jackasses, and very few who like the so-called “spineless losers.”
In that light, I honestly can’t blame people who think there’s a tendency for wome to prefer “jerks” over “nice guys.” (And lest anyone jump down my throat, do remember that I explicitly denounced both viewpoints as oversimplifications earlier.)
… or its just easier to see the “jerk” and the “spineless nice” ? After all from afar… its easier to put labels to simplify things. So when the “normal” is sucessful people wonder how he did it… but they don’t throw a label ?
Still overall we have some wierd mental wiring that isn't ideal going on. I think its pretty clear... and that sometimes we let it lead us. Instinct is real. Unfortunately men are being taught one thing... and its not necessarily the way to do it "sucessfully". People aren't all mature... men or women.How about this… all the “jerks” out there really aren’t jerks, it’s just that since the woman picks them over you, you don’t like them, so you ASSUME that they are a jerk.
No, I don’t think that’s it. As I said earlier, I have several female friends who have admitted that they tend to be drawn to jerks. Most of my female friends aren’t like that (thankfully!), but there are enough to cause me concern and consternation.
What’s more, it’s often hard NOT to interpret these guys’ behavior as jerkish. When they openly abuse people, get boisterously drunk in public and cheat on their ladies… well, it’s hard to draw any other conclusion.
I think everyone needs to learn how live happily single before they can really live in a relationship.
Desperation? Is bad first and foremost for the pressure aspect - I have some very defined, very tough goals in my life that I work very hard on. The “work” segments of my life are not easy, but I like working that hard. However, I think a relationship should, for the most part, be a source of strength in my life. If I have to live for two, one of them should be my offspring. I don’t want to be in charge of more than one life. If I am happier, more stable, and more relaxed without a person than with them, why on earth would I date them?
I also think that a lot of the problem is self limiting - the women who are prepared to have a stable relationship with a stable, kind man will remove themselves from the dating pool - just as stable, kind men who are prepared for a relationship with a woman who has outgrown the bad boy thing will find one, and not be in the available pool.
And different people want different things - personally I endorse the strategy of being the kind of person that the kind of person you want to be with would want to be with. That sounds so confusing, but its not. If you are attracted to smart, independant women, work on being a smart, independant man, and don’t get bent out of shape when you see a brainless bit of fluff go for the biker on parole.
I think we are, in large part argueing over semantics, but in response to JThunder’s
I don’t think any (or many) women like jerks. But I think many women refuse to date a boring guy. Boring in this case meaning what many here are referring to as ‘niceguys’. I think the ‘jerks’ who have their own opinions, don’t kiss the feet of women they just met, and don’t bend over backwards to try and make her like him, are genuinely more interesting to hang out with. I really hope women aren’t saying “I love going out with him becasue he treats me bad.”…I’d like to think they’re saying “I love going out with him becasue he’s funny/exciting/interesting.” If it so happens he does some things she doesn’t like, or are inappropriate, I’d bet it still beats going out with the horribly boring ‘niceguy’.
But I’m not a woman, so I could be way off.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I’ve had women confess to me that they keep falling for jerks. Or, if they don’t use that precise term, they still admit that they tend to fall for guys who aren’t very good, or who don’t treat people well.
Of course, these women won’t come out and say, “I loves them jerks!”, but the point remains… This is the type of guy that they keep falling for.
And after watching these guys in public, I can’t help but agree. They’re jerks, all right.
I don’t have a problem with “nice guys.” My preferred guy is what most people would think of as a “nerd” or “geek.” The two things that I find off-putting are a) guys that spend all their time complaining about women and how they can’t get them b/c they are too nice to them b) men without a sense of humour/who are boring. When a guy takes me out and spends a good deal of time bitterly talking about “women this” or “women that” I am uncomfortable. I imagine this creature is similar to women who go out with guys and talk about their ex-boyfriends all the time.
This is interesting. I don’t consider myself a nice person, I’m actually pretty unfriendly and hard to know, but according to some of you, I’m a “nice guy” in the worst possible sense. Usually when I find myself involved with a woman, I do everything in my power to hide the feelings, preferences, and and any aspects of my personality I think she won’t like. I become a total non-person. So not only does the woman never get to know me for real, I’ve completely forgotten who I am myself.
So let that be a lesson to you guys - Don’t be like me!!!
After reading the whole thread, I feel compelled to share some advice taken from my own experiences. I want to stress that “Nice Guy” is a loaded term and though my fiancee is certainly a very nice guy (i.e. dedicated, honest, sweet, extremely caring), he’s managed never to earn or self-identify with the “Nice Guy” label. There’s a definite air of boring/safe/predictable/fawning/whining to the “Nice Guy” label, as evidenced by this thread, and most women seem to be put off by it.
Since jerks supposedly get more women, I think the real question here is this: How does a guy go about attracting women without having to be a total jerk?
My good advice:
–First of all, the central tenet of avoiding the “Nice Guy” label: avoid seeming desperate–it’s really off-putting. As is the whole martyr thing. Feeling some sense of entitlement just because you aren’t a heartless jerk is a turnoff.
–Go for the right girls. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched my “Nice Guy” friends complain about girls only wanting “Bad Boys”…only to see them chase exclusively after the kinds of girls who will reject them. Many “Nice Guys” have too-high standards (will only date super-hot girls) or serially pursue girls who have known histories of dating jerks. Some hypocritically avoid nice girls (capitalized or not). Identify the types of women you should avoid and the types you should get to know. Be realistic.
–The first part of a relationship is supposed to be the most exciting. So if a woman is bored two dates in, she assumes it’s all downhill from there. Keep things spontaneous at first. This doesn’t mean playing games, just show her that you’re interested enough in her to break out of the “hey, let’s have dinner and a movie, pick you up at 7 with a dozen roses” sort of way. If she likes music, ask her to go shopping for records with you. If she likes going to bars/clubs, ask her to come check out an interesting new spot.
–As well as trying to go with her interests, show her some of your own. When I first met my guy, I didn’t know anything about his favorite band. He made me a mix tape, just a casual gift, no strings attached. When I listened and liked what I heard, he surprised me with tickets to a show. I’d never been to a rock concert before, so it was really cool that he shared it all with me.
–Lastly, don’t go into any sort of “Nice Guy” routine. No generic compliments, no puppy-dog fawning–it seems so fake. This makes it feel like you’re just going through the motions for “what to do when I meet a girl I like.” I want to feel that you want ME! Give me a compliment that you wouldn’t give anyone else. And for heaven’s sake, don’t start talking marriage or soul mates (unless she does) until it’s a reasonable possibility. When I was a freshman in college, another freshman who was hitting on me kept telling me how he’d make a great husband. Ewwww. Serious case of “Nice Guy.”
OK, that was long, and I don’t mean to throw any accusations at the OP. Hope the advice is helpful. Take it from someone who’s marrying Tobey Maguire–hell, he even looks like Tobey…
I definitely put myself into that first part but I perhaps may resemble the second part…you tell me.
I definitely am my own person and will listen to the music I like, watch the movies I like and so on. Where my question on this comes in is I seek compromise between myself and the person I am with. I do not foist my movies on her or music on her. I try and see if we can find common ground. When driving in the car I’ll rotate stations till we can find something we can both live with. When going out to a movie we go through the list vetoing each others choices till one can be found we both agree on.
Occasionally I will force a choice on the woman or have a choice forced on me. Perhaps I come across a song I really like while spinning channels in the car and she’ll just have to live till the song is over (happens the other way around too with me listening to a song I do not like for her sake). Occasionally my GF will twist my arm into seeing something she really wants. But if I have to see The English Patient then I get to pick The Matrix next time out (just examples).
Unfortunately that seems to make me wishy-washy. I should be The Man and decide where we go to dinner, what we go see, what we listen to, what we do. If I get it wrong too often I am a shit. If I pander to her desires I am a wimp. Especially when first starting to date and I do not have a good grasp on what the other does and does not like it is really offputting to be in that position. Give a guy a break and help him out ladies…I’d think everyone would be happier.
Very well put… I have friends who have an entitlement attitude. Doesn’t work out well for them.
(bolding mine)
No, I don’t think compromise makes you seem wishy-washy. Mind you, it’s not always about finding common ground; taking turns works well too, but you already know this. Share things like this. I bolded your statement that turns right around exactly the other way too - we don’t want the *sole * reponsibility for it either.
What comes off as wishy-washy is a person who always defers to the other one’s opinion, to the point of never expressing a preference of their own. I have a friend like this who even does this to his male friends, and it drives us all a little nuts. I like him more when he dares to express his own opinion. I wouldn’t want to be the woman trying to shoulder the whole load of two people’s entertainment, dining choices, and emotional well-being in a relationship.
“Jerks” seem to be on the other end of the spectrum; always thinking only of themselves. I don’t like them either.
But a man who’s pretty much the same person around me as he is around his buddies (although with less farting, at least at first) is usually going to be someone I like. Whether there’s chemistry or not in that particular relationship is a whole different story than the old “Nice Guy” debate. I liked one good guy who didn’t like me; I didn’t like one who wished I did, and eventually I settled down with the one I clicked with.
Might it help to be a partial jerk?
Women of the Dope, what jerk-like qualities in a man really get your motor purring? Be specific.