First, Millit the Frail, I think you’re brilliant, thanks for the post. A lot of what you said, I figured was the truth, but to hear it from a female was great.
I don’t think the ‘niceguy’ or the ‘jerk’ has anything to do with what movies you both like, what songs you listen to, at what restaurant you eat, etc… When first dating, you’re basically getting to know each other to find out if you like each other. That’s what’s important. If I’m on a date with a girl, and the conversation is fun, she’s being confident, and she has her life together (basically if the chemistry is right), I really don’t care if I hate the music she listens to, or if she loved a movie and I hated it, or if she loves liver and onions.
Not to sound like a broken record, but it’s boring that turns women off, not nice.
Hang on, I think your whining just went supersonic there. That is bull, and you know it. You are a smart guy, surely you can figure out the difference between:
girl: Sure I’ll go out with you. Where do you want to go?
Nice Guy: I don’t know. What do you want to do?
girl (feeling pressured and a bit resentful): Well… Bloodsucking Redneck Vampires is playing downtown.
Nice Guy(hates horror movies, feels resentful himself): Sure, whatever
And this:
girl: Sure I’ll go out with you. Where do you want to go?
nice guy (who has his own interests and a life): I heard that The Cafe has blues every Friday night. Does that sound good, or do you have another idea?
girl: I don’t know that much about the blues, but that sounds fun. Or we could see a movie. Do you like horror movies?
nice guy: Only if they’re cheesy. Have you got one in mind?
girl: yeah. Say, maybe we could do both: listen to the blues while we have dinner, and then go to the movie.
nice guy (happy): that sounds great
girl (also happy): have sex with me right now
Okay, so that last part won’t happen, but the rest is true. You don’t have to “decide” what to do on the date, but you should have some ideas and options in mind if you are the one asking her out. If in doubt- ask! It’s not easy on this side either.
I always have a few ideas in mind. I can’t think I have ever called to invite a girl out with zero clue as to anything to do.
For instance, I’ll call and ask her to dinner and she’ll usually ask where. I tell her I have a few good ideas and ask if she prefers Italian, Mexican, French, American, Greek…whatever (I don’t list every type of cuisine in the world and keep it to a few choices…this is just an example). Hopefully she’ll say something along the lines of “Oooh…I love Mexican food!” Or, “I’ve never tried Greek food but have always been interested in trying some.” Whatever…point is I now have some clue of where to point us and will gladly take it from there. The alternative, and happens all too often, is she answering “Whatever is fine” only for me to learn later that Mexican food gives her the trots (humor attempt but hopefully you see my point).
Her “Whatever is fine” answer puts her squarely in SusanStoHelit complaint about the passive Nice Guy area.
It is a two way street and it is hard for both sides but with just the tiniest effort a great deal of uncertainty (insofar as where you go to dinner anyway) can be swept away.
You just haven’t been listening, have you? Nobody wants The Man. The Man is one of the jerks you’re bitching about women always leaving you for. You should do what you describe in the first two paragraphs. Take her wants and needs into consderation, but have your own input, too. That’s really all most of us want–someone who won’t try to ride roughshod over us and who won’t let us ride roughshod over him. The first part keeps you from being a jerk, and the second part keeps you from being a wimp. The combination makes you a good guy with or without the Nice Guy title.
To clarify my previous post, “Nobody you want to be with wants The Man…” There are indeed some women who want The Man (or at least think they do) and other jerks. Those women, however, are people who don’t have their emotional shit together and aren’t capable of giving a good guy what he deserves in a relationship because they’re not capable of giving themselves what they deserve in a relationship. Thus, you don’t want to date them.
Note to non-jerks: It is impossible for those who don’t have an innate talent at jerkdom to effectively emulate being a jerk. Some people are naturally jerks. Other people are born “not jerks.” Women (or at least Jerk Seeking Women) will instantly see through your ruse, and know instantly that you are just a “nice guy” pretending to be a jerk.
Sounds fairly common to me, though a bit passive - the potentially non-passive things are falling under vague terms like ‘whatever’ and ‘somewhere new’.
Going weak in the knees doesn’t always have to do with looks as such, but not all women are actually aware of this. Nor are all men.
Chemistry, schmemistry. Few people understand the strength of positive and negative association. People whose character you dislike will look uglier and people whose character you like will look prettier, more attractive. I’m sure there are a few non-believers out there who’ll disagree with me. Ignore them.
Last time I had this, I wasn’t just shocked, I was angry. This is where the bad boy role has its use. I was out with a girl, and we had a really good time, were really comfortable talking to each other. At the end of the date she said that she had a good time with me, but she didn’t feel that ‘click’. I replied by telling her that I had a really good time myself, but that I rarely feel a ‘click’ at a first date, and found it rather early to discuss clicks. Yes, but wouldn’t it be nice to have that click right away, she replied. Sure, I said, if you can get that it’s fine - but if it doesn’t, then it’s still rash to go straight out and say it to me. I’d rather just think about whether you had good enough a time to have another date. Then I went on being the nice guy, telling her that I appreciated her wanting to be honest and open about this, but that she was putting too much pressure on a first date.
Outside the ‘dating’ world, you meet people much more casually. Perhaps you meet them on a party or going out with mutual friends a few times. Perhaps you play sports with them, or they are colleagues you run into every once in a while, or you ride the same bus. Something develops long before you ask someone out. But if you date someone you met on the internet, for instance (where in the Netherlands as much as 60% of all new relationships start, apparently!), you miss all that. That’s something you have to allow for.
In your case, I would have used a ‘Bad Boy’ approach to kindly but firmly ask her to sit back down. I would very bluntly ask her if she had something better to do, and if she was such a good judge of character that she could in just 10 minutes determine that staying with you a little while longer was going to be a lot worse than going home and eating icecream, or whatever. I would point out the above, and that her current approach to dating is one way to do it, but a very shallow one. If she walks away from that, you have made sure that whatever is walking away now, is not something you’re going to have to be awefully sorry about missing out on.
You are absolutely right.
With the risk of giving my trade secrets away to people I might want to use them on at some point in time, I’d say the following elements are important, but the quantity of each depends on the woman. Though I’ll wager this is something that applies to all people.
Comfort. Make your date comfortable. This usually means taking away tensions - prejudices, and so on. A bit of confidence and openness goes a long way here. One fun way to deal with it is asking what her biggest fears are for tonights date. I’ve never tried asking this outright, but I’m now wondering why not - it might very well work and take tensions away right off, and doing this ‘covertly’ is a lot harder (and more tiresome).
Pleasure. This is simple entertainment. This is the part where women often say that they find it important that their date has a good sense of humor. More importantly, they just like to laugh and be entertained. So do you. If you can’t do this in conversation, you can work on that (recommended - lots of tips on keeping a conversation alive already in this thread), or you can go for more active dates, that involve dancing for instance (useful to know how to dance, people’s belief that a good dancer makes a good lover is deeper rooted than you might think, and perhaps also truer than you might think - as dancing means having control over your body, a sense of rhythm, and both giving directions to and listening to your partner).
Challenge. One aspect that I’ve noticed is very important to me personally is the feeling that someone challenges me to be more than I currently am. To explore and question my limits. And I find this generally works for my date too. She likes to learn new things about herself, and she often has set herself limits that actually block her from things that lead to happiness. These can be self-imposed restrictions, prejudices, and so on. Often they stem either from social ‘rules’, or hurts from past experiences. With the latter you have to be more careful, but you can still question them gently.
Surprise. Closely related to Challenge. If you’re able to surprise your date every once in a while, you’re not behaving the way she expects, and so you’re not something she already knows. People often hate to be predictable, for this reason - it is generally considered boring. Mysterious is a quality that goes here also.
The levels of which to apply any of these, depend on the woman. If she comes across as very nervous, insecure, and so on, 1 is very important and then 2, and you may not even get around to 3 or 4 before a few more dates have passed. But if she comes across as very outgoing, secure, and so on, you’ll want to move much more quickly to 2, 3 and 4.
Note, however, that these are just strategies that people with a little more depth to them need to use to get to the point where depth actually counts. And finally, it is very important to realise that the woman that suits you best will require you the least conscious effort to be anything but yourself. On the other hand, if you find that you don’t suit the women you like best, you have some work to do on yourself, not on your selection of women (this is a rule I’ve always been very strict about myself …).
But such women are rare enough and often a good application of the above 4 points will allow you to meet the person of resounding depth. In your case, the one with whom you’ll comfortably read books lying in bed with.
One last point - the kind of people who like 1. and 2. are often a bit more shy and frequently end up either with a 3 and 4 person, or become a 3 and 4 person. That’s understandable, because the 3 and 4 persons tend to be more outgoing (looking for challenges, not afraid of surprises) and so meet more people. Therefore, a bit more of 3 and 4 in your life may help you to find that 1 and 2 person.
(Yes, in case you wonder, I do say this partly because I think it may apply to you. )
Back when I thought I was a “nice guy” I was in fact an insecure wimp.
Then I learned what so many posters have said in this thread. Women like men with confidence. Some jerks are self-confident (and therefore attractive to women in a “bad boy” sort of way), and some nice guys are self-confident (and therefore also attractive).
Point is, you don’t have to be a jerk to exude self-confidence. You don’t have to be a jerk to be self-assured.
Sometimes an Alpha Male can also be a nice guy.
One other point:
Hollywood lies to guys. In Hollywood films, the insecure guy who brings flowers and writes poems almost always winds up with the girl. That formula may sell movie tickets, but it is no guide to living. Don’t believe it. Confidence is the real thing.
The classic “nice guy” mistake in conversation (and I don’t know whether you do this or not) is to take a deferential tone and agree with everything the woman has to say. In my experience, women prefer a guy who will challenge at least some of their views, debate them, even tease them (playfully). This doesn’t mean you should be a jerk about it. Nor does it mean you should adopt a hostile tone and dispute everything the woman says. It just means that if you disagree with something she says, or if she says something patently goofy, you shouldn’t be afraid to call her on it. Do it playfully or earnestly, but not in a hostile way.
(In fact, sometimes I think women occasionally say goofy things just to see if a guy has the balls to challenge them.)
Yeah, although I don’t think it’s a good idea to actually display them unless provoked. I’ve had the best results by doing something along the lines of talking on the phone with them, finding out roughly what they like to do, coming up with a relatively short evening- drinks at place X, then dinner at restaraunt Y, and presenting this as my plan on that evening.
I’ve got many positive comments on having the evening planned out- apparently the wishy-washy “But what do YOU want to do” guys are pretty common. I always feel a tad commanding when I do that, but it’s worked well so far.
Look, women aren’t attracted to guys just because they are rude, borish, abusive or antisocial. If you are a nice, plain, regular guy and decide that you are going to act like a prick to women, that isn’t going to get you laid.
There is something about certain guys that women find attractive - good looking, successful tall, money, easygoing attitude, they look “cool”, they are fun, they have pot or other drugs and alchohol, whatever. There is something that no matter what those guys do, women find them attractive. The reason that they seem like “jerks” is because they do and say the things that the “nice guys” only wish they had done or said. They go up and say the things girls really want to hear while the nice guy is yammering away about whatever. They don’t treat women like the woman is doing them a favor by talking to them. They don’t act like each date is make or break for the rest of their romantic life. They act like “if you like me, great, if not I’ll go find someone who will. And if I don’t like you, I’m not going to waste both our time trying to make it ‘work out’”.
Y’know, I’m reminded of the Brendan Frasier movie, Blast From the Past. Brendan’s character was raised in a 1960’s bomb shelter, and meets a girl when he comes out. He pursues her, and grows on her a bit, but she’s really not interested, partly because of his “nice guy” behaviors. The situation turns around when her gay friend (Dave Foley) gives him a bit of advice:
Good advice, and I do this with most of my first dates. It started after I saw an episode of Politically Incorrect in which a Playmate said, “I think that, just like there are gas chambers for homeless pets, there should be gas chambers for homeless people,” and the men all nodded :eek:.
I haven’t said anything so outrageous, but sometimes I’ll throw something a little odd or crazy in. If a guy challenges me on it, he will suddenly seem much more attractive.
You know, I have to wonder if those guys were too spineless to argue with her, or if they thought she was too stupid and assinine to be worth the effort and were just sort of ignoring her and hoping she’d shut up. I’ve occasionally tossed out comments that were so ridiculous I thought people surely had to realize they were jokes, only to have people who really ought to know me better take me seriously. The results tend to be noncommittal “mmm” noises, slight “allrighty then” sorts of nods, and a change of subject. It’s really rather insulting to realize that someone thinks you’re so stupid and ridiculous that, for instance, you honestly believe the Gulf War was started when it was just especially to ruin your birthday.
I have to draw the line at intentionally saying something, just to “test” someone. Now, if you’re joking or being sarcastic, fine. But I’m not going to toss something weird out JUST for the sake of seeing if he’ll contradict me. I hate it when people “test” me, and I never do that to other people.
I’m a gay guy, so I don’t have any stake in the whole heterosexual romance thing beyond a nature-show kind of interest (“Now we observe the elaborate mating dance of the heterosexual!”) But it shocks me that people doubt that some girls dig jerks.
I can understand the impulse to chase after bad guys, because I do it too. I can’t speak for women, but I was having a conversation with a couple friends, one a guy, one a girl, and I said something to the effect of, “How can you be attracted to a guy if you’re not sort of scared of him?” “Exactly!” responded my female friend. The guy looked at us like we were both nuts. The phenomenon exists. And I doubt faking it is a good solution anyway; personally, I seem to have such an acute radar for jerks that when I’m attracted to a seemingly decent, nice guy, he eventually turns out to be evil. Really. I’ve learned that if I’m particularly attracted to a guy, chances are good he’s a sociopath.
There’s a lot of girls who can do this too. Stop chasing after them. What’s the point? You can’t fake whatever sets off the belladonnas of the world anyway - trust me, we can tell the jerks on sight. Personally, I don’t pursue romance at all, and I don’t intend to until I’m a lot less fucked up in the head. But don’t doubt that some girls are like that. belladonna, for one, and the friend I mentioned earlier for another.
Sure, some girls are like that. Some girls are like a whole lot of things. Maybe women construct ideal personality types the way men envision their fetishes. Who knows.
Which leads me to another off-the-wall speculation: What if women who are into dangerousness, emotional unavailability, etc., are merely sublimating a desire for sexual submission (which, Og knows, biology and history have conditioned them to accept) into a socially acceptable form? The only difference between a doormat and a sub is that the sub at least is truthful to hi/rself about hi/r wants and desires.
Excalibre, you said a mouthful. How telling that it takes a gay male to have some perspective on what motivates women…I guess only an interested outsider can really see what’s going on.
As for me, I gave up dating 6 years ago after coming to the conclusion that I would have to scale a mountain of bullshit and play a lot of socially predetermined roles before attempting it again. Here on the Dope I’m getting an almost equal amount of feedback in the “yes” or “no” direction.
There was a lot of moaning about those books a few years back called The Rules…but nobody has a leg to stand on to criticize The Roles. They cast their shadows over our pathetic little nothing existences, about as relevant as Mt. Rushmore but just as implacable. They are visible from every point in the relationship between a man and a woman. Biology is not destiny, but pile on economics, semiotics, psychology, and sociology, and it all adds up to something that differs from destiny to only a statistically insignificant degree. (Or does it?)
Sometimes it strikes me that love is the most conventional thing one could ever do. Maybe it’s so tangled up with rules and roles that it’s not worth it if you don’t believe in them. After all, love is social. It only exists inside of a network of social conventions, rules, and roles. How much of it can you reject and still expect to reap the fruits?
Yeah, so I’m posting drunk, alone and alienated on a Friday night. Wanna make something of it?
