??? 
So how do you know which is which? What other people tell you? I mean, except for the parables, nowhere in the Good Book does it say “this is a metaphor” or “this is literal.”
And there are many who feel the ACLU shouldn’t defend the rights of Christians.
Bill when the ACLU is taking on the KKK as a client - they’re not trying to say that they agree with the KKK. The cause of action is what’s important. And, in those cases, it’s things like Freedom of Speech and all those pesky American Freedoms that we like to use.
the thinking is that if those freedoms are limited by the government in cases where they find the speech reprehensible, that has the potential to erode the freedom for all of us. After all, pretty much none of us agree with the government 100% of the time. Pretty damn similar to the argument presented by the NRA re: Gun rights (any erosion will lead to near total erosion) do ya see now?
:rolleyes: Bill, I’m Jewish, and I understand the theory even if I don’t share the belief. Look up the “Miracle of Transubstatiation” if you’re interested. The upshot is that the host miraculously changes and is imbued with the “essence” of Christ as you eat it. Some people believe that the host physically changes as you eat/swallow it. (Is that pretty accurate, Palandine?)
Since I answered a question of yours, how 'bout you answer one or two of mine: When Noah’s flood “happened”, fish were specifically excluded from the list of creatures God told Noah to take on the ark. Most salt water fish would have died in extremly dilute fresh water, the salt would have killed most of the fresh water fish and a number of species only live in certain areas like the mouths of streams. How’d the fish survive?
The other question: Light travels at a fixed speed in a vacuum, (if we ignore gravity and such). How’d Adam and Eve see stars? The starlight should have been billions of years getting here. If God created the light “on the way” he planted false and deceptive information. I can’t believe God would do that. If the speed of light is variable, then everything we know about light is wrong. How can this be explained.
Eagerly awaiting your response,
Fenris
Wild Bill said:
Umm, what view would that be? That everyone, no matter what their thoughts are, has a right to free speech (first amendment) in this country whether the majority agrees or not?
Hilariously (and predictably), it’s the ACLJ that takes the constitution out of context and twists it to their views:
From the ACLJ website:
So, if you weren’t the “right kind” of Christian or a Muslim or an atheist, clearly these guys wouldn’t defend you or your cause. Bill, think about that view of the constitution!
Wildest Bill said:
You know, as much as I hate the members and ideas of those groups, they do have a right to exist in this country. That’s pretty much what America is all about.
The line is blurring for me: what’s the difference between a fascist and a communist?
Finally, for the record, Pat Robertson is the closest/most popular person I’ve ever heard espousing the views of Nazis and KKKers. Please click on the link I mentioned on the previous page and read his quotes. Chilling. But yet, the ACLU would defend his rights to say those things. And you still don’t like the organization. Interesting.
Pretty accurate, Fenris, although closer to the Lutheran understanding. The Lutherans believe in a Real Presence, but that the bread and wine also remain. We believe that the host and wine become the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ and only the appearances of bread and wine remain.
A deeper discussion can be found at the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm. However, it reads like stereo instructions–serious Catholic theologians often don’t make enough of an effort to make theology understandable to the lay person.
Once again, I didn’t mean to hijack the discussion–just thought I’d follow up on your point.
Sax,
Here is one I found already. http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/acluenemy.htm
Sax,
Here is one I found already. http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/acluenemy.htm Any organization that would use a book so dear to so many as a advertisment to raise money to keep it out of schools I have no use for and consider them a foe. You see I value being a Christian more than I do being an American.
Fenris,
Man, those are some pretty intelletual questions for me don’t ya think? 
I would love to try answer them but you might have to find someone a bit smarter since I don’t the answers for sure.
I’ll throw one back at you. Why would a fish that is happy swimming around in the ocean all of sudden decide to start growing legs so he could walk on land? I have went swimming (actually entered the water where a fish has never been on land) a few times and I never started growing fins. I know kevin costner did (grew fins) but that was a movie. 
Okay, let me just say…
Oh wait, are we in the Pit?
Alrighty then. Wildest Bill, you’re a moron.
I do not call you a moron because you are a (self-described) Christian. I have no problem with religious questions or beliefs. I read and watch with great interest material dealing with these issues. I mentioned The Sparrow on another thread; I found it fascinating and moving. I am not, by any means, a knee-jerk anti-Christian hatemonger.
No, I call you a moron because people are painting huge, simplistic messages in bright red letters on giant boards and holding them in front of your face, and you stare blankly right through them. FriendofGod may be just as stubborn, but at least he’s willing to engage in the discussion and respond directly (most of the time) to comments and questions. You, on the other hand, seem blissfully unaware that a comment or question was even raised, or if you do acknowledge it, you show no evidence of having understood it in the least.
Exhibit One: The ACLU thing. Listen up, now. We have the right to free speech in this country. You say you know this, yet you demonstrate no comprehension of what this actually means. Let me explain it for you. I’ll go slowly, and I’ll use short sentences.
We all have the right to express any idea we choose. We can assert any opinion, no matter how unpopular. We cannot do anything we want, and we cannot incite people to commit illegal activity. However, with a few minor limitations, we can say pretty much anything we want. If I so desire, I can create a website that says the moon is a giant booger blown out of the nose of some ancient Lovecraftian monster. I can self-publish books that say Jews are the ministers of Satan. I can wear a t-shirt with a picture of Idi Amin and the logo “The Savior of Mankind.” (Note: I don’t actually believe any of that. Well, maybe the bit with the booger.) Nobody can stop me from doing any of these things. In this country, I have the absolute, unquestioned right to engage in any speech I like.
I recognize that I will be laughed at and/or shunned for engaging in this kind of speech. Unpopular speech is, in most cases, quickly and vehemently condemned. Extremely unpopular forms of expression, like Klan gatherings, are attacked most forcefully of all. Ninety-nine point nine percent of Americans would probably be perfectly happy if the Klan packed its collective bags, donned concrete shoes, and went for a swim in the Marianna Trench. But voluntary cessation is one thing; official blocking of unpopular speech is quite another.
In order to uphold our ideals of free speech and unregulated thought, we must allow all forms of expression in our society, even those we find distasteful or destructive. The ACLU recognizes this. They fight to allow all forms of speech, from your beloved Christian causes (see Polycarp’s cites) down to inbred truck-driving morons with pillowcases on their heads. You cannot distinguish between speech you like and speech you do not like.
Are Klansmen stupid and hateful? Yes. Are Nazi sympathizers misguided, ignorant, angry fuckwits? Yes. Would I be happy if they all hid in their basements and never, ever came out again? Yes. Would I be happy if the government decided that Neo-Nazis and Klansmen had outstayed their welcome, and should be entirely shut down? No way, no how, absolutely fucking not.
Threats to freedom of speech will, and do, arise around the edges, in the areas of unpopular expression most people wouldn’t mind seeing disappear. That’s the insidious thing about it. Make Nazi flags illegal? Sure, what’s the problem? The problem, as I said, is that you cannot distinguish between “good” and “bad” speech. Except for libel and incitement, all speech must be allowed.
Fine, you say, it’s “allowed.” But then you say the ACLU is “wasting their time” defending it. I say, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. The ACLU is out on the fringes, fighting against the tyranny of the majority, preventing well-meaning people from quashing even the most unpopular forms of speech – because if you’re able to justify even one exception, then you open the door to justifying others. This is the “slippery slope” argument, and while it’s fairly dubious in most circumstances, it’s absolutely valid here. You cannot have true freedom of speech if you make exceptions for things you don’t like.
And here’s something that will blow your tiny mind: The ACLU would even stand up for your right to say that the ACLU is bad. Roll that around in your brain for a few moments. Consider the implications of that statement. Go back and re-read it. Please, do. Actually, I’ll repeat it. The ACLU would even stand up for your right to say that the ACLU is bad.
You have the perception that the ACLU fights for “stupid” causes because you, as a not-very-intelligent person, don’t understand that all forms of speech must be protected. Society says Klansmen and Nazi sympathizers are stupid. Society would be happy if they went away. You’d be happy if they went away. So would I. You must acknowledge that the right to free speech cannot be abridged. But then, somehow, you fail to understand what the ACLU is doing when they jump in to protect the stupid Nazis when some governmental body oversteps its bounds and tries to prevent them from expressing themselves. The ACLU gets associated with these stupid causes because society doesn’t mind if these stupid causes are marginalized. You’re a perfect example of this misguided complacency, and You. Are. WRONG.
I feel like I’m repeating myself, and in some ways I am. But it’s frustrating to keep explaining these things to you, Wildest Bill, and have them slide off your brain like a pat of butter from a hot Teflon frying pan.
Anyway, that’s just one example of why you’re a moron. Let’s continue.
Exhibit Two. The fat-blocker thing. You ask for information. People tell you to be careful. You disregard the medical advice, and focus on the people who are telling you what you want to hear. This is foolish, self-destructive, dangerous, and, yes, stupid. There are some very, very well-informed people on the SDMB. You ignore their advice and information at your peril. Yet, that’s exactly what you do. You brush off facts you find inconvenient and you latch onto conjecture that supports your previously held position. Intelligent people weigh the evidence impartially, and come to a conclusion based on facts. You, on the other hand, start with a belief, you ignore information that contradicts you, and you accept unhesitatingly any tiny tidbit, no matter how tenuous, you can use to bolster your belief. This isn’t just a lack of critical thinking; this shows a dearth of thinking of any kind. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.
But that’s not all.
Exhibit Three. You refuse to accept any kind of responsibility for the things you do wrong, the latest example being your run-in with the police. The cops don’t freak out for no reason. Okay, go ahead, cite Rampart. They’re the exception. And you’re a perfectly average, middle-aged, middle-class suburban fellow. You were not “profiled.” If you were descended upon by six, seven, or eight police cars (depending on what your story is today), you did something to deserve it. You absolutely refuse to admit this. You cannot comprehend how you might have been wrong. Speeding? Spraying gravel? “I’m just living up to my ‘wildest’ name.” Fuck you, you selfish, short-sighed asshole motherfucker cockwipe bastard shit-for-brains dickhead. You break the law, you get hammered. End of motherfucking story.
You are a bad American citizen, a bad Christian, and a complete and utter moron. You don’t understand the law, you don’t admit to wrongdoing, you don’t listen to people, you cannot think critically, you don’t apologize, you don’t accept responsibility. Jesus would be ashamed of you and how you call yourself a follower of His, because you clearly don’t understand the first thing about anything He said or taught.
I’d be perfectly happy if you and everyone like you donned your own concrete shoes and joined the Klan at the bottom of the Pacific. But again, because stupidity and ignorance is not a crime, you’re free to walk around, parading your moron self with pride, teaching your children how to be morons just like you.
The rest of us, meanwhile, will desperately try to wake you up to your blithely self-centered fuckitude, before you do some real damage.
End of rant.
(stands up, applauding wildly)
Go Cervaise, go Cervaise, go Cervaise! That was a 100%, dead on target, right on the bullseye rant!
WB, you’re an amiable cuss, but you had that coming because
YOU JUST DON’T LISTEN!
Oh, and your Christian Courier link is just as stupid as you are. Every single point is wrong, wrong, wrong. If you aren’t smart enough to recognize this, then it would be pointless to explain it to you.
No. I didn’t think they were too intellectual for you to answer. I’m sorry to see you shrug them off without even trying to find an answer for me. How in the world can you possibly believe, if you don’t understand what you’re believing in? I may not understand everything about evolution, but I have enough of a grasp to answer your question to me:
As tempted as I am to point out how lame it is to “throw one back at me” when you didn’t even try to catch the one I tossed to you, I’ll refrain.
Evolution, outside of X-Men comics takes countless generations. A fish didn’t suddenly grow legs, but a fish might have been born that was born with, say, a little sack that it could store some oxygen in, which allowed it to inch up a bit out of the water. This might have allowed it to get more food than it’s fellow fish so it mated more than it’s fellow fish.
It’s children were successful and somewhere down the line, a new fish was born that had a bigger airsack. Then one was born with an airsack that could work without gills. Then one of these had mutant gills that it could use to drag itself a little ways out of the water. This gave it access to better food, and it’s kids thrived, and so on and so on.
Creation “scientists” call this “micro-evolution” in a desperate attempt to fool people into thinking that there’s a difference between “micro-evolution” and “Darwinian evolution”. The basic lie they tell is that they claim there’s a difference between one small “micro-evolutionary” step and lots and lots of small “micro-evolutionary” steps. Collect enough pennies and you’ll have hundreds of dollars. It’s just that each piece added to the pile is tiny in and of itself.
Fenris
Thanks, goboy. (That previous message was addressed to WB, in case there was any confusion.)
And hey, WB, here’s a link from your own source explaining why driving like an asshole is so fucking stupid.
http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/oneStep.htm
If you’re going to cite them for the ACLU thing, then I can cite them right back at you to show you why your refusal to accept responsibility for your dumbshit driving practices is anti-Christian.
I eagerly await your response.
Hey, Fenris.
Since you handled the transubstantiation thing so nicely, I thought I’d help you with this.
Almost every “creation scientist” I’ve ever heard does in fact say that just as Adam was created as a grown man, the light from stars billions of light years away was in fact created “on the way,” as you say (I can’t think of a less confusing phrase). I share your problem with a God who is deliberately deceptive.
The REAL nutty “creation scientists” argue against the science of using parallax or red or blue Doppler shift to tell how far away the stars are. I suppose for them the only logical conclusion is that the universe is no larger than 6000 light years in any direction from earth.
Bill, you almost had a good point!
You said:
If you would’ve stopped there I would have been proud of you! It is pretty disrespectful, I agree wholeheartedly.
But you actually said:
The complete quote changes the whole point around, though. Are you saying that The Bible should be taught in schools (referring to public schools)? Are you mad? Are you not aware of the separation of church and state in this country?
I checked the ACLU site for the reasoning/timing behind this ad. This is what they said:
There you have it! It was deemed necessary by the ACLU to inform the public of a blatant violation of the rights of those students. None of the “arguments” from the site you linked addresses this (even though it’s the whole point of the ad).
You said:
Interesting, because if you had been born almost anywhere else in the world, you would probably not have been Christian. If you took the time to look at the histories and cultures of different countries, I think you’d learn to respect and recognize the freedom you’re given in the US. And, I’d hope you’d want to protect those liberties for yourself and others.
I hereby award you 10,000 Extra Bonus Moron Points for:
–believing that morphological changes are made willfully;
–not understanding the incredibly slow process that is biological change;
–never having heard of mudskippers.
But go ahead, keep being a moron. It suits you, really.
Originally posted by Cervaise
Yes we are. Proceed to use all the profanity and vial remarks you want for the rest of your posts.
Hey, I try to answer as many questions as I can but when you got flames coming at you like a flame thrower it is kinda hard.
But yet you call me moron for expressing mine?
I guess my speech is unpopular huh?
Oh yea they fight for the right for free speech but boy they sit on their hands when it comes to fighting for the second amendment violations. Hyprocrites.
But you call me moron for expressing mine. Oh ok, noe I get it.
Oh what a bunch nice characters the aclu is. They would probably do it just for the free publicity. To tell you the truth I could do without their help. If I was being hassled, I would hire the ACLJ.
Oh you got more? Yes, please continue.
Well, since I never told anyone what “kind” of fat burner I was taking, how could they know it is bad for me? Hmmm?
I agree there are some very informed people here. And I do listen to alot of there advice. But I still make a decision after I weigh all the information. That is my perogative.
I already covered this before but who else is going to accept resposibility for my tickets but me? So that is an erroneous statement.
Are you sure you have enough expletives in that sentence? Boy, if your mother could hear you now?
I think am a decent American citizen. I probably pay more taxes than you. Bad Christian? I wouldn’t say bad not the best but not bad. I admit I do need some more work but I do try.
Are you Christian? How do you know how he feels about me? Only God can judge man when it comes to belief in Him. If you are not a Christian, at least I believe in Him how ashamed is He going to be of you?
Now you want me die? What did I do to you?
Did your mother and father teach you how to communicate my kids don’t talk like you. And your going to call them morons?
Originally posted by Cervaise
Yes we are. Proceed to use all the profanity and vial remarks you want for the rest of your posts.
Hey, I try to answer as many questions as I can but when you got flames coming at you like a flame thrower it is kinda hard.
But yet you call me moron for expressing mine?
I guess my speech is unpopular huh?
Oh yea they fight for the right for free speech but boy they sit on their hands when it comes to fighting for the second amendment violations. Hyprocrites.
But you call me moron for expressing mine. Oh ok, noe I get it.
Oh what a bunch nice characters the aclu is. They would probably do it just for the free publicity. To tell you the truth I could do without their help. If I was being hassled, I would hire the ACLJ.
Oh you got more? Yes, please continue.
Well, since I never told anyone what “kind” of fat burner I was taking, how could they know it is bad for me? Hmmm?
I agree there are some very informed people here. And I do listen to alot of there advice. But I still make a decision after I weigh all the information. That is my perogative.
I already covered this before but who else is going to accept resposibility for my tickets but me? So that is an erroneous statement.
Are you sure you have enough expletives in that sentence? Boy, if your mother could hear you now?
I think am a decent American citizen. I probably pay more taxes than you. Bad Christian? I wouldn’t say bad not the best but not bad. I admit I do need some more work but I do try.
Are you Christian? How do you know how he feels about me? Only God can judge man when it comes to belief in Him. If you are not a Christian, at least I believe in Him how ashamed is He going to be of you?
Now you want me die? What did I do to you?
Did your mother and father teach you how to communicate my kids don’t talk like you. And your going to call them morons?
Bill, I know you appologized for it, but if you’re going to call out Cervaise for calling you a moron, well, I’m going to remind you that on page one of this thread, you implied I trade sexual favors with my college professors. So don’t start. Don’t EVEN start. Cervaise flew off the handle, as did you. But of course, you didn’t mean it and you appologized.
“Are you out of your stupid rotting skull, you dumb man!?!?”
-Crow T. Robot
I think it fits here, don’t you think?
BTW, if I’m not mistaken, the ACLU did protect a student who was sentenced to detention by the student’s principal for praying BY HIMSELF before he ate lunch. I’ll try and look it up.
And think about it: the ACLU protects the rights of Nazi speech, and you know why? Because if they didn’t, they would be no better than Hitler himself, because Hitler did NOT allow anyone who disagreed with him! WE do, even the lowlife scum, because we will not sink to that level!!!
JEROU3JIOERIOEU)E()JVPOEJ)(R$#
banging head on keyboard
“And after taking a serious beating by Cervaise, Bill comes back fighting with… yes, it’s his ‘Gosh, Why Are You All Being So Mean To Me?’ ploy! He follows up quickly with the, ‘Gee, I Don’t Have To Resort To Profanity’ Holier-Than-Thou trick! As he dodges questions and facts, this kid may survive a little longer - until somebody pops his air-filled skull with a much-deserved boot to the head!”
:rolleyes:
Esprix