Shrug, seems to me that voice mails only confirm that he had a meth problem. The gay sexual relations are a different story.
I think it would be both a political and moral mistake to rush to condemn the man. Let’s see how this all plays out first particulary vis-a-vis the allegations of a sexual congress.
Why?
And do you suppose your opponents are less decent than yourself? The British empire denied basic civil rights, including recognition of marriages to the Indian people in South Africa based not on there sexual orientation, but on their nationality.
So either the British oppressors were not decent people and Gandhi succeeded anyway, or they were decent people. If the British were decent in their oppression of the Indians, how can you say gaybashers are not?
You are only 10%, give or take, of society. You are NEVER going to win by knocking the other guy down. Your only hope is to get as many people as possible to help lift you up!
Think about that…as it relates to this situation…
I AM ON YOUR SIDE!! I just think you guys need to seriously get a VISION so you don’t get intoxicated on non-issues like Haggard.
As usual, **Miller **has found the words that express my thoughts more cogently than I, so I will yield that field to him . But since you are back, newcrasher, I am compelled to ask this of you again –
What “missed opportunity”? What can Americans opposed to Haggard’s (stated) POV do, that they’re not doing already?
This. Is. The PIT. Where people who do scummy things get flamed for them. Where scummy people who are land themselves in difficulties get gleefully gloated over. This is not the place where we put our best foot forward and transcend our bad tendencies and take the high road and choose positive strategies for proactively getting to yes. This is where we rant and rave and swear and snarl and fume and freak and fight. High-mindedness has no place here.
I swear to Og, if we get any more of these sanctimonious rant squelchers coming into Pit threads to plead with us to overcome our negative attitudes for the sake of making the world a better place, I may have to start a Pit thread myself.
Well, that and he admits getting a massage from the guy, but I’m sure it was perfectly innocent. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
m’kay
We didn’t knock anyone down. Or even try. He fell tripping over his own hypocrisy. Glossing over this area of bankruptcy in his character is missing the opportunity to teach the perils of such hubris. No. I will not be quiet in this small victory.
Intoxicated I may well be. But in the morning I’ll be sober. You’ll still be acquiescing.
THIS ISN’T ABOUT WHO IS GAY AND WHO ISN’T. THIS IS ABOUT A HYPOCRITE WHO HAS TRIED TO DESTROY PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF HIS GOD GETTING HIS COMEUPPANCE.
As has been noted, this is the goddam motherfucking Pit. If I want to take a few moments out of my day to do a little dance of Schadenfreude over some idiot WHO HAS HURT PEOPLE WHILE CALLING IT THE WILL OF HIS GOD being called out in public for the liar that he is, then this is the place to do it. Furthermore, your sanctimony offends the crap out of me. Just because your particular moral or religious system is opposed to people having the audacity to have human emotions for five goddam minutes doesn’t mean we all share it.
“Mouth breathing cretins?” “Loony?” “Loathe?” Not that I disagree with the language you’ve chosen, but isn’t that sort of at odds with the overall point you’re trying to make?
Has anyone in this thread done that? Der Trihs, maybe, but I don’t feel like scrolling back to read his post to make sure. I know I certainly haven’t. I’m well aware of the vast gulf between Haggard and the ideals put forward by Jesus Christ.
Best of luck to you on that. The religious right has been begging for a backlash for twenty years now. It’s high time they got one.
Because that doesn’t always work. Sometimes, when you refuse to hit back, it just means you get hit more. It is important to have a space for civil dialogue in the gay rights movement, but it is just as important to have anger and outrage. It has to be made clear that we will not accept being treated the way Haggard and Falwell and Dobson want us to be treated. “Turn the other cheek,” sounds good on paper, but in practice, it just sends the message that you don’t mind being hit in the face.
First, we didn’t destroy Haggard. He destroyed himself. And secondly, yes, there will be someone to step into the vacuum he left. But odds are, that person won’t be as charismatic, as well-connected, or as politically savvy as Haggard. He was one of the top men in the evangelical movement, and he’s not going to be easily replaced. His movement will definitly falter, if only for a little while, as a result of his disgrace, and that gives us another inch of ground. We gain enough inches, and soon enough we’ll have a mile.
But going after Haggard is not incompatible with this at all. Haggard, who has attacked gays as anti-family, has revealed himself to be entirely unconcerned with the welfare of his own family. We can use him as a contrast, between gay marriage advocates who want the stability and fidelity of their relationships to be recognized, and Haggard himself, who takes the stablity and fidelity implied by his marriage and pisses all over it with whores and drugs. You don’t think that there are a few people on the right who pick up on this discrepency, and who are going to think twice about pledging their support to whoever shows up next spouting exactly the same rhetoric? I do. There won’t be a lot of them, but there will be a some. And when the next one goes down, there will be a few more. Every one of them is another inch.
Again, we didn’t destroy Ted Haggard. We don’t need to destroy these people: they destroy themselves. But we’d be fools not to exploit the opportunity presented when one of them self-destructs.
Only if we’re willing to fight for it.
That won’t wash. Why is the guy’s dealer a gay prostitute?
And I cross-posted that rant with newcrasher’s acknowledgement of Kimstu’s post, so now I look a little hysterical. Don’t mind me.
Well said!
Oh bullshit. Gays aren’t alone in this. I’m straight but I’m dancing on Haggard’s political grave too. His politics are an affront to human decency and dignity, which you dont have to be the target of to take personally. I guarantee you there are a lot more people enjoying this than there are crying over him.
I am against the destruction of any family, wether they be Mr. and Mrs. Rev. Haggard or Mr. and Mr. Steve and Kyle Bonesmoker. Have I ever used that particular argument in defense of gay marriage or other gay rights? I dunno.
But I have a gay brother in law who has a partner, and they have a child. They are part of our family and we don’t really make a big deal about it. They are just…there. Like I am.
But I guess the answer to your question is no. I have defended gay marriage and adoption because if two committed adults want to love each other and raise a family, I really don’t care. I think the world is running a little low on love these days and if two guys or a coupla gals can find it, have at it!
I am very interested in social justice. My church focuses on helping the poor in my community, as well as a community in Pavas, Costa Rica and Santa Ana, El Salvador. It isn’t that I wouldn’t actively participate in the gay rights movement, it is just that I am very busy with other efforts. To be honest, in my travels, Haggard barely makes it onto my radar screen.
Like I said, I don’t want a medal. Just don’t paint me witht hte same brush you use for the religious right.
We can all relax now. Turns out he only went to the guy for a massage, and he threw the drugs away. Thank goodness! I was worried there for a minute. :rolleyes:
newcrasher the reason to not cover this up is that a lot of people follow people like this. Wouldn’t it be nice if we expose these haters as hypocrites, or at least make their congregations start thinking about what they say critically. From your POV, maybe this will help their congregations follow Jesus and not Rev. Haggard or Preacher Joe Bob.
So he’s moving people into concentration camps now is he? Being against gay marriage is not quite the same as him destroying people. Seems a little OTT there mate.
As I said, let’s wait to see what comes out of this. I don’t think a huge “I told you so” backlask or “he’s getting his” will help the cause.
Right. I never said cover it up. I just said offer Haggard the love and understanding he has denied others. Scream that message from the mountaintop. THAT will get the attention of people who say they follow Christ but find themselves following Haggard. At least a few of them.
As Gandhi did, follow Jesus more than Haggard did. What will they do when the fag is obviously following Jesus more than their pastor? They will really have to search their soul for an answer.