I would if I could stop laughing.
Most drug users probably don’t give a shite who their dealer is. Maybe he is gay or whatever but let’s not tar and feather him just yet.
I am not very good at this Christian thing.
That is a shame. Not to beat Gandhi to death (poor choice of words), but he said to the British, “We will match your capacity to inflict suffering with our capacity to endure suffering. We will meet your physical force with Soul Force. We will not hate you, but we cannot in all good conscience obey your unjust laws. But we will soon wear you down with our capacity to suffer. And in winning our freedom we will so appeal to your heart and conscience that we will win yours in the process.” I am hoping to see someone try this approach in my lifetime. I would join that movement in a heartbeat.
I hope someone in the gay rights movement has a better vision than this.
Do you really believe this? Just like Bush is breeding insurgents in Iraq, you will breed faghaters here. Your “inches” will be seen as rallying calls to the right, who will then reclaim “feet”.
Aw hell, let’s stick with Gandhi. He was leading a strike of Indian miners in South Africa. When the mass-transit workers (bus and taxi drivers who were white) struck over a separat issue, Gandhi called off his strike until the trnsit strike was resolved. He did not want to “defeat” his enemy, or take advantage of the enemy’s hardships. He wanted a moral victory and a change in heart in the people oppressing his people.
Does none of this ring true at all?
I may have attributed the quote about suffering above to Gandhi when it should have been Martin King, Jr. Either way…
What do you mean?
I think it’s definitely a low point in Pit history when people can’t chortle at the public embarassment and downfall of someone who richly deserves it without getting a lecture on how we should all be more like Gandhi.
I personally choose to believe that Ghandi would join us and piss himself laughing at the hypocrite. 
I personally choose to believe that Gandhi would join us and piss himself laughing at the hypocrite.
You know, they really should make the preview post and submit buttons look different.
I pit Mahatma Gandhi.
Slept with Virgins, that bad boy did!
How exactly should gay people apply Gandhi-like tactics? Are they going to have anal sex at straights-only lunch counters?
On a more serious note, that sort of thing only works if your opponents can be swayed by logic or emotion. This doesn`t work when your opponent believes that they were put on this earth to follow a set of rules, and one of the most important parts of those rules is hating you and hating the way you love. The British did not believe that their eternal souls and the souls of their fellows were in danger if they failed to adequately oppress and spread revulsion for their Indian subjects; some powerful Christians do believe this about gays.
If gays seem strident and bitter sometimes, its because mainstream society is largely tolerant of the subset of Christians that vilify them and fight to keep their civil rights from them. I feel sad for Haggarts family, but Haggart himself is devoted to the prevention of families and the obstruction of love. It is inadequate punishment if he only loses one family for this, and it is a victory for civil rights, marriage, and love every time such a man is discredited.
[QUOTE=newcrasher]
I am not very good at this Christian thing.
“We will match your capacity to inflict suffering with our capacity to endure suffering. We will meet your physical force with Soul Force. We will not hate you, but we cannot in all good conscience obey your unjust laws. But we will soon wear you down with our capacity to suffer. And in winning our freedom we will so appeal to your heart and conscience that we will win yours in the process.”
[QUOTE]
How should the queer community do this? Sit-ins at courthouses and churches? Please explain how gays can use these tactics. I don`t think they can.
[QUOTE=newcrasher]
Do you really believe this? Just like Bush is breeding insurgents in Iraq, you will breed faghaters here. Your “inches” will be seen as rallying calls to the right, who will then reclaim “feet”.
[QUOTE]
Consider also the moderates in the middle, who, seeing the increasing hypocrisy of the right, become less and less tolerant of it. Knocking down a faghater isnt helpful...showing people the hypocrisy and ultimate uselessness of faghaters is. Also, good metaphor! Laughing at a loony closet case is JUST like our administrations handling of the Iraq war! I wouldn`t have made the connection, myself.
[QUOTE=newcrasher]
Aw hell, let’s stick with Gandhi. He was leading a strike of Indian miners in South Africa. When the mass-transit workers (bus and taxi drivers who were white) struck over a separat issue, Gandhi called off his strike until the trnsit strike was resolved. He did not want to “defeat” his enemy, or take advantage of the enemy’s hardships. He wanted a moral victory and a change in heart in the people oppressing his people.
The British did not have a moral mandate to be enemies of the Indians, so they stopped doing it when it became too troublesome. The Christians in question feel that they would be committing a serious sin if they`re inadequately oppressive to gays.
[QUOTE]
I am smrt with the quote…thing. Sorry.
You seem to be better at it than most.
“Soul Force” would make an excellent name for a '70s blaxploitation movie.
At any rate, I really don’t think your Gandhi comparison is going to get much traction here. Gandhi advocated non-violence, but he did not advocate capitulation. He was more than willing to criticise, even mock, those who opposed him. I agree wholeheartedly that violence would be counterproductive for the gay rights movement, but that’s pretty irrelevant, because the gay rights movement is already non-violent. We’re already following his example: we’re fighting for our rights through argument, protest, and legislation. Is this not how he won Indian independence? What is the gay rights movement doing, that is so different from what Gandhi did? For that matter, what is anyone doing in this thread that is so different from what you’re doing in this thread? You’ve used language to describe the Christian right that is every bit as harsh as what we’ve used to describe Ted Haggard. You’ve used a far wider brush in your posts than I have in mine: for the most part, I’ve limited my criticisms to one person, not an entire religious/political movement.
Would you care to articulate exactly what is wrong with my vision? It’s worked pretty well for the gay rights movement so far. In just thirty years, we’ve gone from homosexuality being viewed as a mental disorder that warrants jailing, to a serious national debate about gay marriage. We’ve moved faster and further than any previous civil rights movement in this nation’s history, using tactics no different than what I’ve advocated here.
Except that they can’t. The fundamental advantage of any civil rights movement is that converts move in only one direction. It is possible, if seldom easy, to change the mind of someone who does not think an oppressed minority deserves rights. It is nigh impossible to change the mind of someone who thinks an oppressed minority does deserve rights. The anti-rights movement is constantly bleeding supporters. Look at the polls taken on supporting gay marriage over the last decade. Every year, the numbers change just a little in our favor. We’re already winning this war, and there’s nothing the anti-rights movement can do to reverse that, because their position is fundamentally bankrupt. There are no good arguments on their side. They’ve got nothing to convince people who disagree with them to change their mind. All they’ve got is tradition and inertia. The best they can hope for is to hold onto those people who already think the same way they do, and over a long enough timeline, they won’t even be able to do that. They’re done. Their movement is dead. They just don’t know it yet.
I entirely fail to see the relevance of this.
I want to make one more point, related to the “This is the Pit!” argument a few other have put forward. You keep talking about engaging in civil debate with our opponents instead of just excoriating them. Which is all well and good, but it’s hardly applicable to this forum, or this board in general. Why? Because it’s so damned hard to even find an opponent on the SDMB. This is the most queer-friendly website I’ve ever seen outside of a gay dating service. There are almost never any debates over gay rights here anymore. The closest we get are arguments over wether gays need to get legislation to allow them to marry, or wether they are already guaranteed that right under the Constitution. I can think of only two regular posters who are actually opposed to gay marriage. Whatever the validity of your points may be to the outside world, they simply aren’t applicable to how we carry ourselves on this message board, because this message board is already almost entirely on our side. This thread amounts to nothing more than a bitch-session amongst likeminded friends. It’s not a reliable representation of how we engage people in the real world, or on other messageboards that aren’t as progressive as this one, or even how we engage with the occasional homophobe who posts in another forum on this board. The Pit is here so that people can blow off steam about things in the world that aggravate them. It’s not here to develop multi-lateral strategies for social change. That some queers (and their allies) show up here to gloat over assholes like Haggard does not mean we would act the same way when meeting with one of his flock in real life.
It’s just such a perfect shitstorm out there: Hey Macaca! Get out of those boxers, my lovely, lovely page! Git out 'mah rally, 'fore I smack yew upside yore librul haid! It ain’t Rumsfeld, it’s the generals! Can I score some meth…and got any poppers while you’re at it, sugar-pie?
I came in here with some stuff to say, but Miller, I think you already said it all in your first two posts in this thread. As always, you’re right on target.
Agreed. Fuck him. Or not. He likes it.
Awesome. Great for you guys.
Keep it up. (believe it or not, no pun intended)
I do kinda feel bad for his family, not alot mind you, but a little. But as for the “man”… ohhhh… I laughed, and I laughed.
It couldn’t have happned to a more worthy person!
I don’t feel bad for any of them. I especially wish I could hang out at his church for a while, see how people are holding up.