An open apology

Hi, Joe_Cool.

I know that you don’t know me from Adam, and I wouldn’t be replying to this thread (not being part of the original discussion), but I do have some advice for you. I hope you take this in a friendly spirit, as that is how I mean it.

I have read this thread, the other pit thread, & the original, and it is true that you and your wife were not the only ones with harsh words. However, if you expect others to accept your apology, you should be willing to extend forgiveness to the other posters who have said cruel things to you and Jerseydiamond in the heat of anger. I think that you should do that regardless of whether they apologize or not.

I know it’s not my business, but on the outside I can see how your apology is compromised with the resentment that you feel toward everyone else involved. It’s understandable, but it would be better to let it go. To forgive (I mean REALLY forgive in your heart) in this case may be as important (or even moreso) than to be forgiven – it will help you avoid escalation in the future if you can be more forgiving of others.

I suppose this is my advice for everyone involved, but I am directing it toward you because I think that, as a Christian, you probably care about it especially. I know it’s easier said than done, too, but it hasn’t really been said here and so I thought I’d say something.

Shalom.

Hi, Joe! You spoke about making progress step by step. Your apology as it is is a good start. And if you can totally let your defensives down, you will have made another step.

As for what you might be feeling about Eve, as Christians we are required to love one another. That will be another step on the journey.

Well said! Can you also see that others here have that same privilege? The way they conduct themselves is between them and their God ~~ or sometimes it is just their business alone.

God bless,
Zoe


Ferret Herder said:

[quote]
My mother always taught me that "I'm sorry you were hurt by what I said" wasn't a real apology.
[/quote]


True, it is not an apology for behavior.  But sometimes, when we are not sorry for what we have said or done, we can acknowledge that we are sorry that it hurt the other person.  That is fair and honest and leaves the door open.

I’m known (IRL) often for being ‘brutally honest’, especially in my work. So, I’ll tell someone to their face that in my professional opinion, that the reason they’re not getting hired isn’t cause they’re a convicted felon, it’s cause they reek of marijuana. Or that, again in my professional opinion, that w/a criminal record of bad checks, credit card fraud and shoplifting, accounting isn’t a good career option.

However, when I heard that a client was diagnosed w/Hep. C, I didn’t choose that moment in time to suggest to her that maybe she’d brought it on herself. And, I expressed condolences to the son of the woman who died of a drug overdose, instead of saying “wow, we knew it would happen some day”.

pretending that a rude in your face comment is ‘merely honestly offering their opinion’ is itself a deceptive way of dealing w/other people. Appologizing by telling people that “you started it and were worse offenders than me and besides you goaded me into it, so it’s really your fault” isn’t an appology.

and, bottom line - participation in a message board is voluntary. YOu choose the threads you open, and respond to. If you know, by historical evidence, that your own ‘honest’ thoughts will quickly end up with a flamefest, it’s disingenuous to the extreme to pretend that you have no responsability for the resulting eruptions.

My dad is a die hard Republican, to this day believes that Nixon was hounded out of office. We don’t generally discuss politics. If it’s possible (and it seems to be) that I can continue to have pleasant family outings w/family, where I have little control over the conversation, and cannot, in good conscious refuse to see them, then it’s absolutely possible for some one who holds opinions that they know are considered hateful, obscene and insulting by other members of a message board, to simply not participate in discussions/threads where that particular aspect of their belief system would be called out.

you have attended dopefests, and actually met people who had lifestyles that you ‘disapprove of’ (or whatever). Did you find it necessary to share all of your thoughts w/them? probably not.

and ya know what? when a client once asked me “what do you think” about a situation, my reply was “You don’t want to know”. So, if in the very rare occasion that some one actually asks for your specific opinion on ‘gee, I wonder what you think about g/l/tg/b folks’, one possible truthful response could actually be “I really don’t care to discuss it thanks.”.

but then, if you chose that particular road, you wouldn’t have the fun of playing the wide eyed innocent,being insulted for merely expressing honest opinions.

Yes, nasty things were also said to you, and JD. However, once you light the fuse to the firecracker, why do you express surprise when it goes “Boom”?

Besides that, you already came in here and made a sincere (IMHO) apology to JD.

She has yet to do so to EVE.

I see a closed, restricted apology with lots of qualifiers and self-aggrandizement and “They started it” and suchlike and so forth.

An open apology would go something like this, for anyone who’d like to learn what one is:

“Eve, KellyM and anyone else who was offended, I offer my heartfelt apology and condolences for my actions and words in the threads in question. Regardless of how justified I may have felt they were I now understand they were not, and will do my best not to allow such to behaviors/comments to repeat themselves. I hope in time you will be able to forgive me.”

When I posted a link, some time ago (a little over two years ago), to an article all about race intelligence, I got pitted for it and rightfully so. At the time I didn’t understand why I was seeing (in the cite) what I saw, but it seemed to answer the questions the OP of the thread had, so I posted it.

It turned out that it was the “scholarly research” of one David Duke. Rather than continue to say “but I didn’t know it was him!” and maintain my own innocence, I apologized to any and all offended. Would I have been justified in going on a crusade to defend myself? Probably not. Would I have been victorious? Absolutely not. I realized that it was more important to issue a Mea Culpa ASAP and assure folks involved that I would do my best not to let such event happen in the future. And, to my knowledge, I have not.

Regardless of how right you may feel you are in some circumstances, the far better route is to acknowledge both your faults and your own efforts to remedy the situation. Without reservation. Without saying “I’m not sorry for what I said, I’m just sorry I got caught.”

An open apology doesn’t exclude anyone in the offended party.

Thank you lel, I was actually a tad shocked having started that thread(“Whoa! That was my thread!”). As a side note, I was pitting DrChuckie, so the OP was a tad angry of me.

I would also like to say that I’ve spoken at some length with His4Ever and she is a dear person. I think that she has tried to stay away from threads where she may have difficulties expressing herself, and only appears in them now to defend other Christians. Many people like this are very much children to this part of the world. They may not know any Gay people or transgender people, or had much experience with them.

Children can often have strange reactions to things, and even be outright insulting. Some Christians will attack people because they are angry at themselves for not being able to express their feelings as well as others might. Some Christians never learned how to love Gay people, or are afriad that their love may lead someone down the wrong path. They may be afraid to give an OK signal to someone if they’re not sure what they’re doing is ok.

I think that’s why so many Christians pop into the Gay/Lesbian/Transgender threads, they’re curious, and perhaps mystified.

I used to use drugs, and have been on and off the street several times in my life. I’ve gotten to know all kinds of people and done a lot of strange things, and slept in a lot of back rooms and Mexican hotels(The service is terrible, but for $5 a night who cares?). Sometimes the rooms were more expensive then the girls outside. Most of these Christians aren’t like that.

BTW, I just checked out that picture link Shayna posted.

Eve must be what? 45? I don’t know, I’m just estimating from dates on the other thread. She’s beautiful.

Not just marginally attractive, but beautiful, almost startlingly so. She’s got a woman’s eyes, I’ll say that much. Her neck is slender and looks remarkably smooth. Her hair looks very soft, silky. She has bight, full lips. Her nose is very, I don’t know, but it’s cute. But her eyes. . .

Eve, you have beautiful eyes if you’re still reading this thread. Absolutely, startlingly, beautiful eyes. I need a fan or something. I’m married dammit :wink:

I was mad to read in the pit thread that JC’s wife had called Eve an “abomination” when in fact she called her abnormal. No one bothered to explain that. Well, if having an operation to change sex isn’t abnormal I don’t know what is. It carries no prejudice in my view. I must say JC’s wife gets on my nerves and they definitely didn’t give Eve the respect she deserves but abnormal is the shittiest thing ever?? Only Eve could tell us how she feels on this, not that it matters now, but it seems to me the rest were prone to hysterics in the pit thread. I remind that in her class act Eve replied to the comment about being singled out as TG at a dopefest, something worse IMO.

correction: has an abnormality. Sorry for the double post.

A while back Eve was on television as a featured expert/author in a special on vintage movie stars. This was back when she was posting under the name Flora McFlimsey, IIRC; way before she revealed anything about her personal background, at any rate.

She’d already knocked me out with her wit and style in print but seeing her “live” was a real whoomp. My reaction? An involuntary, envious, “Ah, shit, she’s all that and gorgeous TOO?!” The gestures, the stance, expressions, the whole…person was indisputably Eve: congruent, natural and essentially, gloriously female. Anybody who can’t (won’t) recogize that is willfully self-deluding. Eve is exactly the woman she was born to be. It just took her a much longer, lonelier, painful road to get there.

Even if someone won’t recognize or respect another’s life, I cannot fathom the impulse, however rationalized, to deliberately, arrogantly–cruelly and persistently–make another human being’s path even harder. That isn’t “love” or altruism, no matter the pretty ribbons. It’s blind, passive-aggressive hate. And it’s entirely evil in its effects, whether intended or recognized.

Feh.

Veb

That doesn’t mean it’s a nice thing to say about someone. Monty is a deaf Mormon color-blind Navy veteran. Those are all facts about him. If I were to post “truly words to live by from a fucking deaf Mormon color-blind Navy veteran”, that would be both truthful and very much offensive.

And it does in others. And there are other, less offensive ways to say someone is post-op TG, such as … well, that. The word “abnormality” doesn’t need to be used at all.

ISTR that the comment made that was taken as incredibly offensive in GD was Jersey saying that Eve looked like a man … Eve, the woman on this board who, perhaps more than any other, exemplifies what it means to be a lady.

After seeing Eve’s picture I have to say that I suspect that JerseyDiamond was lying to herself when said she made the remark that started all of this.

Bullshit. I’m the one who misquoted (by using the wrong word) that particular lady and I cleared it up quite soon. With an apology for using the wrong word.

Oh, she wasn’t lying:
Jersey Diamond’s ideal of feminine beauty

For those who don’t want to follow the link or torture the hamsters, here’s the spoiler: Pamela Anderson Lee.

[ ]<–weighted silence

Veb

She thinks Britney Spears is too mousey?!

I imagine this must take a lot of the sting out of what Jersey said. Her idea of mannish must include anything smaller than a C cup.

Why aren’t these people banned?

(Completely speculative hijack) Yeah, I’ve seen several pictures of Eve, and never once thought she was anything but an attractive woman.

However, one problem that many M2F’s have is voice - that is, a voice which without very extensive training and lifetime work has that “resonance” to it that makes them cry. I’ve talked to more than a few M2F’s who said that it seemed like the cruelest joke - they could pass 100% of the time, and felt perfectly at ease and “in the right”, until they had to talk. And then they could see the looks on people’s faces. A recent M2F at my workplace (who was mysteriously “fired” for “poor performance”, after a multi-decade successful career) had a serious problem with this. On the phone, it was absolutely impossible to think “female”, but in person, she looked very nice. Dressed a bit frumpy, you know, but hey…

Not ever having heard Eve, and not trying to say anything about her at all, I’m just saying that sometimes the voice (which is very hard to change, sometimes almost impossible from some) can raise eyebrows…and the laser ablative things for vocal cords seem to be really very uneffective or even permanently damaging.

Sheesh, I’m sure most transsexual women have had less (and more tasteful) plastic surgery than Pamela Anderson. If that’s her feminine ideal, no wonder JD doesn’t know a real lady when she sees one.

Pamela fecking Anderson???

YUCK!!!

What next-Anna Nicole Smith?

Eve is extremely lovely.

Sheesh.

I can think of tons of celebs more beautiful than Pam Anderson. Audrey Hepburn. Natalie Portman. Kate Winslet. Olivia De Haviland.

What about the late Queen Mum when she was young? She was stunning!

Hell, has anyone ever seen a picture of Gregory Peck’s wife, Veronique? She’s beautiful and I hear she’s really nice, too. (And she’s married to Greg Peck-how lucky can one person get!)

See?

Some people get all the luck!

God Gregory Peck is gorgeous. I always thought he was gay for some reason. His films are just smouldering…