Huh, A gas station attendant???
more power - probally, men are on average stronger - so what.
more money - Huh, A gas station attendant - get real
more of a future - Huh, A gas station attendant
Think about what you are saying - he pumps gas for crying out load. He sells a product - he wants you to not only come back (as you have stated he’s the only game in town) but wants you to like going there (as much as you can going to the gas station).
>> Its a small town and that is the only gas station
Well, those people were there first and have every right to be and stay there. Some people would move to small country towns looking for just such things. If you do not like them you can move elsewhere more to your liking. I do not think it is good form to arrive in a small town and start telling people how they should behave.
Tornado Siren asked:
Am I overreacting?
I think so. Get a life.
I may be old-fashioned in that I like to hold doors and otherwise be of service to ladies. Having said that, I feel that equal pay for equal work and all that stuff is very important.
I do, however have a solution to offer.
If you are so torn up over the sign do this:
(a) Tell the old male chavinist pig what you think about his sign.
(b) Tell the old male chavinist pig you will not be spending anymore of your money in his establishment because of said sign.
(c) Drive to the next gas station. I know you said it’s quite a distance, but your principals are more important than giving him your hard-earned cash to someone whom is not enlightened as you seem to be.
(d) Don’t gripe about the increasing costs of gasoline. After all, your principals will be costing you another gallon ot two a week.
Oh, and before everyone jumps down my throat for my backward ways, I do most of the cooking in my home. I usually fill my wife’s gas tank for her so she doesn’t have to do it. I go to the grocery store most of the time (my wife has been once in the last three months or so.) I wash dishes. I do laundry. I make beds. I take out the trash. I take her car and have it serviced on a regular basis. I have been known to sweep a floor or two. I take care of the lawn. Why do I do this? Because she is a lady, and I want to be of as much help to her as possible.
If you don’t want to be treated like a lady, so be it. But don’t cry about a sign in a window. Take your business elsewhere.
PS. I still can’t make cornbread worth a damn. I usually ask her to make it.
Once again let me state very loudly, that this was a discussion topic merely. I stated on many many occasions that I have NEVER said a word about my feelings about the sign to anyone involved in the creation of the sign or the policy. I have not tried to get the sign changed, nor have I even considered telling Glenn (the old fashioned gentleman we have been discussing) that maybe he should rethink the wording a bit. I will now state that the wording “I have never been so insulted in my life” could have been perhaps a tad less severe. But it is a deep seeded thing none the less. Women do not need to be cared for on the whole. We do not wish to be “revered” (or at least most women I know do not. If you are a female who wishes to be revered, by all means let the men know.)We want to be respected. Not put aside in a different category. It is this seperation that causes the problems between the sexes. Just as it does with race, when it becomes “us” and “them”, you have problems. Again, I do shop at the store. They are damned friendly folk, and I like almost all of them. And for the record, it is Glenn’s idea to do the full service thing, not the guys who actually pump the gas. Believe me, they would do anything to get rid of it. I personally know of 3 men in this area who will specifically not stop to get gas themselves because they know their wife will be out later and she can get it full service. I actually find that rather amusing, as well as ridiculous. Me, I always pump my own. The attendant has enough to deal with without me sitting in my car and having him do it for me.
Please, it is possible for some women to have never pumped gas and handicap the same. Stop thinking the rest of the world is like the big mac ( the same in every town ) remember where your from… of course a sign like that would not fly most other places…your in a place where most people never leave so they really don’t know that women have come into their own…why must you feel insulted for the rest of the women …there are probably some men who don’t know how to pump gas and need help ( ok, I put the nozel in where )…don’t you remember hearing about the “southern hospitality” before you moved there? …big deal, so, that is how it is in that part of the world…do you want to cut my lawn?
ok…so if I see a handicaped person fall out of their wheelchair I should keep walking and not help …your thought is they can help themselves their not hadicaped!!
I think you missed my point.
The whole “gallantry” and “gentlemanly manners” is what I was referring to, not the gas station attendents themselves.
Before women’s lib movement, when women were second class citizens, and the majority of them were completely dependent on the men in their lives, it was a small thing to hold a door open for them, or whatever else.
Did it every occur to some of you that women don’t want to be set apart, or put on a pedestal? “Oh, we must help them do every lil thing because they are fragile, we wouldn’t want them to hurt themselvse.”
Screw that. It’s not manners, it’s condensending. It’s only “manners” when you treat everyone regardless of gender the same. If you hold a door open for woman, hold it open for a man too. You feel that full-service gas stations are appropriate for a woman? Well, they are appropriate for a man too.
Treating someone “better”, especially if it’s just superficially, is not treating them with a respect, or as an equal.
And sailor, am I holding a gun to your head, or otherwise imposing my value-sytem on you? Have I threated to come beat you up if you don’t do exactly as I say? Have I called the women in your life and told them to run as far away from you as possible? No. Then where do you get off saying I’m imposing my value system on you? We are in Great Debates. One cannot debate unless one is offered an opposing viewpoint. I’m sorry I said something that you simply can’t agree with, but responding with
is, IMHO, not appropriate for a debate.
Also, it’s not demonstrating the “manners” you deem to be appropriate when dealing with “ladies”. Or, am I now a lady because I don’t agree with your extremely old-fashioned and condensending view of women?
Some of us would be glad to treat everyone the same. Unfortunately, society doesn’t work that way. If I held the door for “every” man that was entering at the same time I did, I’d be in a lot of fights. Hence, it’s a judgement call for me.
Whether it’s manners or condescension is actually in the mind of the person performing the action. Just because one perceives it a certain way, doesn’t make that the intent.
This debate has degenerated 
to the point where I feel I can ask this without going off-topic.
How do the posters on this thread feel about the following terms, as applied to adult women;
“Us girls”, when used by a woman. (Very common)
“You girls”, when used by a man. (Somewhat less common)
The term “boy”, referring to a man, is not very commonly used where I live.
Personally I think a girl is a human female, not yet a woman. I call women just that, women.
Peace,
mangeorge
I don’t like the term “girls” referring to adults. However, I’m just 18, and it still feels strange to be called a “woman.” I generally call males my age guys, which is rather age exclusive, and can be a transition term between boys and men. It’s long bothered me that there is no such transition term for females. Now that I’m 18, I’ll refer to myself as a woman, but I still catch myself using the word girl in reference to myself females my age.
However, I especially dislike the connotations of referring to anyone over the age of around twenty-five. I s’pose if women want to call themselves girls, that’s their perrogative, and if they’re happy with men calling them that then that’s okay too. But personally, if a man say “you girls” to me, I’ll good-naturedly mention “you boys” shortly. They get the picture pretty quickly
It is really very simple:
Women ARE special. They are the ones that nature has charged with maintaining the human race. They are the ones who must carry unborn children for nine months. They are the ones who must endure the pain of childbirth. They are the ones equipped to nurture new born children. Women are special, and should be treated with special respect.
Hey, guess what they ARE in a different category, and by default men are in a different category. because (lets say it together) ‘men and women are different’.
as to ‘put aside’ well if you have 2 different ‘things’ and you have to accomplish a task, even if both COULD be used, you will normally use one and ‘put aside’ the other - that doesn’t mean that one is better then the other, just it is perceived that one is better at a particular task then the other.
If you opened the door for every single man you’d be in a lot of fights? Uh…what? My fiance opens the door for every single person, regardless of gender, when we enter a building. He opens the door for young, old, boy, girl, man, and woman. He gets nothing but smiles and thank yous. I would open doors for people, but he always beats me to it. He was raised with manners because he does not discriminate against who he treats with courtesy.
You have to treat women differently because society expects that of you? There was a time when black people had to go to different stores, schools, and eat in different restaurants. Was that OK cuz “society expects that”?
And Mont Furd, not every woman is pregnant. Not every woman even (gasp!) wants to have a child. If we ever have a child, my husband will be the one staying home and taking care of it. Does that mean that he can’t be treated “special” because he’s not a woman?
Remember that famous Supreme Court decision that said “Seperate is not equal”? Believe it or not, not all women want to be set apart, even if it’s putting them on some sort of pedestal.
mangeorge asked:
“How do the posters on this thread feel about the following terms, as applied to adult women;
“Us girls”, when used by a woman. (Very common)
“You girls”, when used by a man. (Somewhat less common)
The term “boy”, referring to a man, is not very commonly used where I live.”
I think it depends on the context of the conversation and the WAY folks say these words. “Us girls” when used by a female to address a group of women with whom she’s really good friends may just be a sign of bonding. When used by a woman to describe her friends and herself to a guy in a flirting context, it may just be a way to be cute, but I don’t think it’s pejorative. If a man who doesn’t know the women he’s addressing refers to those women as “you girls,” then that gets tricky. I personally wouldn’t like it, because he’s assuming a level of intimacy and knowledge about the women that he does not have, but some women may like it. I think it depends on his attitude. If he’s flirting with the ladies and appears sincere in his interest, rather than is being dismissive, he might be able to get away with it. I personally think there’re better ways of addressing women when guys are flirting, but it just depends on the guy. I’ve had complete strangers on the street address me as “Hey, little girl!” and I used to get upset about it, but now I’m just amused by that shit because I know how old I am. I use the word “boy” to refer to guys I know really well, immature grown men, or males who amuse me. Again, what’s key for me is the level of intimacy I have with the guy. I would not address a man I didn’t know as “boy,” but if his immature behavior merited comment, I might refer to him as a “child” or a “boy.” I don’t think I’m belittling them as human beings, but rather commenting on their behavior, but some may disagree.
Calm down. Nobody has been insulting to you. But you are acting ridiculous and flying off the handle with no legitimate cause.
My opinion is that you need to get over yourself. That’s just the way it is there, and I’m fairly certain that town survived just fine for many, many years without the benefit of your ‘enlightened’ views. Like it or not, you are an outsider there, and it is not your business to storm in and try to mold the entire culture to fit your idea of what it should be like.
Were it my gas station and some chick from out of town started getting all up in my face about a courtesy that I provided, I would let her know that she was more than welcome to get her gas elsewhere, as I didn’t intend to serve her anymore. And if it were the only game in town, then I guess you’d be up shit creek.
But that’s just me. Rampant PC-ness irritates the hell out of me. Everybody spends way too much energy worrying about what other people are doing and thinking. Let him run his station however he wants, and MYOB.
re: “Us Girls”, etc,
I cultivated a habit from years back of referring to groups of females as “the ladies”, i.e., the ladies in the office, the ladies at church, the ladies in the changing room at the gym. Groups of males, I refer to as “the men” or “the gentlemen”, i.e., the men in the office, the gentlemen in the train. My girlfriends and I, I refer to as “the girls”, but that is because we’ve known each other since we were girls, and we like to maintain some facade of our disappearing youth.
For individual persons, I refer to either the lady or the young lady, and the man or the young man. I was taught from my childhood that to call any male person who might be of age “boy” is demeaning and disrespectful (my mom was a northerner in Selma, AL during the civil rights movement, and ever since she’s felt very strongly about this). Therefore, I thank the young man who helps me out to the car with my packages, or pumps my gas at full service stations, or holds a door for me when my hands are full (or not full).
All of those actions (assistance with parcels, gasoline, doors etc) to me indicate manners, and I would imagine that they are extended as readily to anyone as they are to me. At the same time, I have been told that I walk around with the sort of look that means I expect to have doors held for me, etc; it just means I was taught what is polite and do expect others to behave as courteously to me as I do to them. Nobody needs courteous behavior, but almost everybody appreciates it as a nicety.
That said, I just looked at the thread title again, and I think the premise is faulty. No, generally, unescorted women are not handicapped. Some may be, but that has no bearing on whether they are accompanied or not. As someone else pointed out, the sign indicates the same service being offered to two distinct groups of people: (1)handicapped persons and (2)unescorted female persons. My opinion is that if I were to be offended by the sign, it would be at the implication that females need an escort, not that they are unable to operate a gas pump.
A related question: are there not some states, or at least municipalities, where all gas stations are full service? For some reason New Jersey comes to mind, but I’ll have to look it up. Or if anyone knows offhand they can just tell me.
Apparently you missed Scyllya’s post from earlier where she did call me ignorant and uninformed. And you also are guilty of not reading what I said. I have NEVER even mentioned to Glenn what I think of the sign and the policy because I respect him enough not to wish to offend him. He is a very kind and decent man, and would not understand how his sign could offend me. It is the mindset here. So I have never been “up in his face” about it. Once again, this is a debate board, and I posed the question as a debate only.
As for the girl/woman boy/man thing…I often use the term guys when referring to a group of men, specifically men that I know. I often refer to my husband and his friends as “the guys” in a collective. “I’m gonna go see what the guys are doing.” There is a female collective version of guys, btw. Its “gals”. But both terms are informal and, IMHO, are familiar. I have two boys…they are 5 and 10…It is incredibly difficult to even imagine calling a grown man boy, although I am often at a loss as to what to call a young man of say 16-20. Young man sounds almost condescending in tone, and boy certainly does not fit, and tends to make them bristly. And I have no desire to bring out the crotch grabbing “let me show you my boy” thing.
You run into the same problem with women, I suppose. That age between 16 and 20 is rather difficult. All other ages are pretty much easy. A general rule of thumb I think is to avoid boy and girl completely, unless you are referring to someone who has not yet reached puberty. After that its a judgement call…but I find guy or gal works fine in an informal sense.
As a sidenote…has anyone ever heard of the movement to get rid of gender specific pronouns? What was the decided one to replace he and she? was it Le? Hell, I cant remember, and cannot even remember where I read about this.
Siren:
Scylla’s a guy.
While I applaud your reserve in not expressing your regrettable opinion to this man, that does nothing to mitigate your condescending and self-superior asessment of the situation here.
If I think women are inferior, but resist the impulse to tell them so, I’m not exactly a hero.
My apologies for assuming the incorrect gender.
Why not just save your energy for situations where women are ‘repressed’ not a situation where women are rewarded. As a man I should be insulted but guess what - I’m not - go figure.