I was not aware of the book “Hollywood Gays.” I assumed that it was a mistitling of “Conversations With My Elders,” which was published in 1986. None of the reviews of “Hollywood Gays” offers any real evidence that the interviews are fabricated. They seem to fall into the “they all sound alike so they must be fakes” and “why would they talk to him anyway?” piles. The reviews of “Hollywood Lesbians” don’t indicate any disbelief in the interviews, but instead complain (as did some offline reviews for CWME) that he spends too much time on his subjects’ homosexuality. I don’t accept this as a legitimate complaint because that’s what the books are about. Hence the words “gay” and “lesbian” in the titles. He does, in each interview I’ve read, discuss other aspects of their lives and careers, and he may very well have edited out parts of the interviews which didn’t pertain to the subject at hand.
The critique that irritates me the most (well, second-most, the most irritating being the one that the subject matter itself is “garbage”) is that he waited until the subjects were dead before publishing. In the first place, he made agreements with a number of his subjects that he would withhold publication until after their deaths. Secondly, even without those agreements, publicly stating that a living person is gay is in this and other countries legally a public defamation. Fer god’s sake, Liberace once won a defamation suit against a British tabloid for calling him homosexual (after he died, they asked for their money back from his estate, which I found amusing). The dead as a matter of law can’t be defamed. Delayed publication was not an attempt on Hadleigh’s part to smear someone after their death; it was a necessary legal strategy.
I’ve read both of his books and think he made up the interviews (I don’t like thinking this, because I’ve had contact with Mr. Hadleigh, and he’s actually a nice guy). But so many of the subjects NEVER talked to interviewers about their private lives; some (Agnes Moorehead, Randolph Scott, Barbara Stanwyck) had not given ANY interivews in years. So why would they suddenly sit down with this guy?
I also tend to doubt how he could “remember” the conversations when he admits he had no tape recorders—and I raise one eyebrow at the fact that most of his male subjects come on to him. Puh-lease. I’ve interviewed a lot of celebs, and these interviews do not come off as kosher to me.
That having been said, most of the people he discusses were indeed gay, which makes the apparent fraudulence of the project even more annoying. Why couldn’t he have been upfront and just published profiles of gay performers, rather than blowing his credentials by inventing these interviews?
You know, at first I thought you asked if I had any action figures on gay male dating habits. It’s the Gay Dating GI Joe! Gay Seargent Slaughter coming soon!
As for the question you actually asked, no I don’t.
I understand where you’re coming from, but since you don’t know that he made up the interviews, it doesn’t seem quite reasonable to say that he’s blown his credentials by inventing them.
quadell
Yes, GI Joe was hot (but Big Jim was hotter, plus he had kung fu grip!), but Sargeant Slaughter? Ew! He was nasty 20 years ago and he’s nastier now. Besides, the gay dating action figures are Billy and Carlos (Gay Bob, being packaged in his closet, never got dates).
Well, I was gone on a big business trip for the better part of this thread, but I read the whole thread (thank me later Esprix) like a good little SD’er and I’ve got a few comments / questions.
The comments first:
I’ll be the first to “out” myself about being someone who has generally been caught right in the middle of the religious debate re: homosexuality. There’s been times when I landed on the side of the fence belonging to the religious right, but I learned a lesson about that a while back and since then I try to extend a basic respect of human dignity to everyone; if I was really concerned about my religious beliefs, I wouldn’t get caught up on a Platonic debate of white/black, or right/wrong, but rather exhibiting what I believe through my own lifestyle. I was never told to go and make everyone into my image of “right”.
And thats enough preaching. PLease forgive me, dear Gay Guy…
So the questions.
(a) I read, waaaay back, this;
Esprix, I guess you recognize this from your story. My question is simple (and I don’t mean it to be a trolling thing), is this common? It seems to me that stories about multiple men coming out of the closet after dating the same guy is fairly common. I can think of 3-4 people I knew in High School that this happened to.
(b) Can I get an estimate of the number of sexual partners you have had, Esprix? This is trolling, admittedly so… I’ve seen it printed and claimed that a homosexual male has over 500 partners in a lifetime, usually claimed in books of a religious bent. I don’t want to judge you on your “performance”, per se… And I’ll be quite open in recognizing the number of girls I’ve been sexually active with, which would be 7 or 8.
(c) I can’t believe that no-one has yet mentioned oral sex in a discussion among males. For goodness sakes! I know from my own experience that hetero males don’t mnd talking about it among themselves… and to find a lot of focus on anal sex (and I must say to Esprix and the esprit de corps, you’ve all done great answering those questions) without any mention of oral sex seems skewed. Do gay men adore the blow-job like I (and my friends) do? The can of worms being opened, what’s it like giving a blow job? I know what girls say, I’m curious about a gay male.
(d) Neurotrash grrl: You raised the issue of lesbianism and answered the questions quite adriotly. I’m also surprised more hetero guys haven’t been peppering you with questions about it, seeing as its generally a given that all hetero males are obsessed with lesbianism. I can say with a great deal of assurance, if I were a woman I’d be a lesbian, which is easy for a hetero male to say. The question is put to you, as well: How high a regard is given to oral sex among lesbians? Do you all like it as much as I do?
Wow. Its been three hours, I’ve been dying to ask all these questions, I’m getting a tad bit tipsy, and I’ve heard “We’re Not Gonna Take It” by Twisted Sister one too many times. A great Tuesday evening, thanks to you all!
On my way home tonite, I stopped at ye olde adult video store. You know the kind, videos and toys out front, $.25 peeps in the back. Anyway, there are usually several guys hanging out by the video boots. Sometimes they will knock on the door of a booth and go “Pssst! Want a blow job”, and the rest of the time they just hang out. I always pictured them looking for another man, making eye contact or something, then going off to have sex. Is there any kind of recognized signal that would let one of them know that you are interested? ( I’m just askin! :)) Do you think these guys are always gay, or are they often bored guys who would prefer to be with a woman, but want sex with a man if that’s what they can get? How effective a method of picking someone up is this? Tonight there was a guy out back by the parking lot leaning against the wall with his cock in his hand. I had to laugh, it seemed to me that was more of a way to get arrested than to get some action, but then again, I’ve never tried to pick up men, so what the hell do I know?
A whole new crop o’ questions. Gay Guy is pleased.
My Quadell wrote:
Clever! Of course Otto mentioned the gay dolls Billy, Carlos and Tyson. Growing up, I had my Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock - draw your own conclusions!
I will endeavor to find some related research/survey data about gay community dating patterns.
Otto wrote:
Did they really package this, or are you pullin’ my leg?
Jai Pey, you are forgiven your religious observations, as they were germane to the conversation… but don’t let it happen again. “Woe be to he who incurs the wrath of a faggot!” (And, of course, thank you for reading the entire thread - I’m honored.)
I’m assuming you mistyped and meant to say you know stories of several men who have dated the same girl is fairly common and then come out. I suppose it depends on the community or the area you live in, but there are certainly women out there who are either friends with many, or have dated several gay men - “fag hags,” to use the vernacular. We used to kid my friend Ruth that if she found a guy attractive, we knew he was gay, because she had I think 3 boyfriends in a row that came out to her after they’d broken up. Did she do it intentionally? No. But she was a musician and hung out in those circles, so it was bound to happen. Mostly, she was just young and clueless and was subconsciously looking for someone to mother, and she would happen upon sexually confused guys who needed mothering. Eventually, they both figured things out, and now that she’s older, she not only can figure out who’s gay, but she’s no longer attracted to younger men who would be more apt to be questioning their sexuality. Does it happen a lot? I wouldn’t think so, not in this day and age, but I could be wrong. I can only go by anecdotal evidence.
There was a time, in the 60’s/70’s, that “free love” took a strong toehold in the gay community. The country was in the middle of the sexual revolution, the gay community had finally made itself known loud and clear with Stonewall in '69, and everybody was celebrating their newfound sexual liberation (well, not everybody, but we’ll say the mainstream gay community at least). So in exploring this newfound freedom, and in trying to figure out what “being gay” means (we’ve yet to answer that question), a good number of newly openly-gay men decided to throw off the “stifling restraints of heterosexualism” and go whole-hog sex-crazy - thus the bars, back rooms and bath houses were born, and anonymous sex reigned… for a time.
Then gay men started dying, and by the early 80’s, we realized our freewheeling sex days were killing us, and safer sex and AIDS prevention became the norm. Back rooms closed, bath houses were condemned as public health hazards, and anonymous sex lost much of its appeal. Pretty soon gay men were starting to look like lesbians, wanting relationships!
Now here we are, levelled out between sex and abstinence, and it’s an interesting balance. Gay men are more free now to figure out what “being gay” means for themselves, rather than defining their sexuality by heterosexual or homosexual stereotypes. It’s a freedom, but it’s also a responsibility, but so far we seem to be doing ok.
What does this have to do with your question? Well, in 1975, 500 sex partners might have been possible. In 1985, men didn’t want 5. In 1995, who cares?
As far as me, personally, I’m between 5 and 500. And without giving away my age or how long I’ve been sexually active, I once figured that my average was one date every two months (a date consisting of going out at least once with someone, but not necessarily having sex… or necessarily making it through dinner, either. :))
Well, I could give you references…
I always find the focus on anal sex a bit perturbing myself, but I’m just going with what I was asked. Straight men (and Jesse Helms) do usually seem a little too hung up about it, when it really ain’t all that anyway. But I digress…
I’ve often said, “What man doesn’t like getting a blowjob?” And I like giving them because I know how much it pleasures me when I get one. If you go down on a woman, it’s really the same thing - pleasure is pleasure, and pleasing your partner is always a good thing.
How many lesbians does it take to screw in a light bulb? None - they rub it 'til it glows.
weirddave wrote:
This also points out that, although the gay community has wised up much over the past 30 years, there is still an air of “sexual rebellion” mystique that clings to us, and in a way, we like it that way. So instead of bath houses and parks, we meet on AOL and hook up at coffee shops. Do we do it as often as the 70’s? No. Is it always anonymous as it once was? No. But I fully admit to having met people this way, and have no problems with it - we’re consensual, we’re safe, and it’s fun. I kind of like being a rebel!
Adult book shops, though, skeeve me. In today’s society it is so much easier to be out and to meet people under much more socially-acceptable venues, so it saddens me that people st
Not trolling, just curious. Don’t answer if you mind.
As a guy you must realize that guys are hairy, ugly, and smelly. We are not attractive. Women on the other hand are soft and curvy, and otherwise esthetically pleasing (at the risk of getting myself into trouble I’d like to note that in general the fact that women are attracted to us men is proof that they are somewhat insane, this insanity loosely enforced by genetic predisposition or something (This is certainly true for my wife, at least (I mean she is attracted to me (Wow, a quadruple parenthesitization!)
Anyway, you are obviously a reasonable and thoughtful fellow, so the insanity plea won’t work. How do you reconcile your attraction to men with our inherent slovenliness?
Secondly, if I posessed female genitalia, I probably wouldn’t be as obsessed with them as I am. They say familiarity breeds contempt. As you are in posession of a male physique and genitalia, shouldn’t it be no big deal?
Are gay people in danger of becoming narcissistic? When you look at yourself in the mirror are you sexually attracted to yourself?
Honey, when’s the last time you looked at an Abercrombie & Fitch catalog? And for that matter, when’s the last time you looked at Dr. Laura’s nude photos? Why do straight people always go with this - “all men are ugly and all women are beautiful?” I don’t understand that. Do you have such a low opinion of yourself? Or do you have an Electra complex that needs adjusting? You don’t need to tell me that Sophia Loren and Jeri Ryan are babes; similarly, you don’t need to tell me Roseanne isn’t. Do I need to point out that although Ed Asner (sorry, SqrlCub!) may not be a stud, Antonio Sobato and Brad Pitt are? Furthermore, just because you or I may not find something or someone attractive neither means that they aren’t, nor does it mean no one else does. Ain’t you never seen an ugly couple? Seriously, I don’t particularly care for bear-ish hairy boys, but I have lots of friends who do. Similarly, most of my white friends do not like Asian men, whereas I can’t get enough of 'em (or at least one in particular).
Now, on the whole, do I think women are more attractive as a species than men? Surprisingly, yes. I still don’t want to sleep with 'em. Additionally, I think women are better than men all 'round - brains, endurance, wiles, whatever. I’m still queer. Go fig.
Hmmm, perhaps you do have a low self esteem. Buck up, pal - somebody loves you! Doesn’t that make you feel good?
To this point I can only say I’m one, too, and I accept it in myself, so I can accept it in someone else. Besides, I’ve dated many a neat freak in my day - some of these queens, I’ll tell ya…
You’re confusing what you’re accustomed to with what you’re attracted to. If you were a woman, but you were straight, of course you wouldn’t be obsessed with your own naughty bits, you’d be attracted to a man’s. This is an oddly twisted way of looking at sexual attraction…
God no - I don’t like dating people that look like me, I prefer much more diversity in my life. But that’s just me - I know plenty of guys who only look for guys who look like them, or at least are the same type.
Are you just playing devil’s advocate, or is this really how you look at things? Yer scarin’ me…
Thanks for the quality answer. I too, think women from a purely esthetic, nonsexual standpoint are much more attractive then men in general.
My self-esteem is actually quite high. Let me put it this way. If the sexes were cars, men would be pickup trucks, and women would be Porsches. Now I am willing to concede that their are some pretty nice pickup trucks out there, but there’s no question which I’d rather drive.
Being a man I get the best of both worlds. I have the use of the rough utility of the male physique, and get to… well you know, with the female. I wouldn’t want another pickup truck. You answered the question well.
Just for fun:
If you forced to have sex with either Ernest Borgnine or Claudia Schiffer who would you choose?
Jai Pey said:
> Do gay men adore the blow-job like I (and
> my friends) do? The can of worms being
> opened, what’s it like giving a blow job?
> I know what girls say, I’m curious about a
> gay male.
I’ve found online more information than you could ever want to know. By the way, if you want to find out for yourself. . . (Oops! Forget I said that. I move that remark be stricken from the record.)
Scylla said:
> As a guy you must realize that guys are
> hairy, ugly, and smelly. We are not
> attractive. Women on the other hand are
> soft and curvy, and otherwise esthetically
> pleasing (at the risk of getting myself
> into trouble I’d like to note that in
> general the fact that women are attracted
> to us men is proof that they are somewhat
> insane, this insanity loosely enforced by
> genetic predisposition or something (This
> is certainly true for my wife, at least (I
> mean she is attracted to me (Wow, a
> quadruple parenthesitization!)
The true answer: Hey, different storkes for different folks, bud. That’s all.
Psycho-analysis of question: Okay, imagine if an Italian man said:
> As an Italian, you must realize that
> Italians are hairy, ugly, and smelly. We
> are not attractive. Americans, on the
> other hand are soft and curvy, and
> otherwise esthetically pleasing
You’d think the guy had an inferiority complex.
If you don’t like guys, hey congratulations, you’re straight. But if your wife finds you attractive, don’t chalk it up to insanity on her part; just accept not everyone likes the same things you do.
Would I lie to you? There’s one for sale right now, where else, on [url=http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=299627399]eBay. Click for a picture.
Yeah, but, see, you’re straight, so that’s kind of normal. (Yes, yes, I know I said the same thing, and I’m gay, but that’s just ironic. :))
Yes, but, see, you’re straight, so that’s kind of normal. (Are you sensing a pattern here?) You also have to remember that there are just as many good ole’ boys as you who would rather have the pickup. Similarly, some people think Pamela Anderson is a babe, others think she’s “plastic,” as I heard someone say.
Perhaps you’re bi-automotive?
Sexuality is not as simple as “that looks good, so I guess I’ll boink it,” so don’t try to understand it in such simplistic terms. Just know that for every thing you look for in a woman, there are an equal number of people who look for the same, who look for the complete opposite, and who look for things in between in women, and then the same again in men, and then the same again in both. It’s just too complex, but it’s sure fun trying to figure it out.
Claudia - she’s closer to the kind of man I like than Ernest.
Whatever you do with a consenting stork in your own home is your business, and I commend your conviction that everyone should have a different stork instead of sharing them, but please leave me out of it, you sick bird-boffer.
Ahem… well then… what was the advice given earlier re: cruising and straight guy let downs?
[pull out “let down flash cards”]
“I’m flattered… but I’m straight”.
[/put away flash cards]
Oy vey. Should cruising be that overt? Kinda blows (PNI) the “subtle surrepticious glance for a second too long” outta the water.
Another question for the amiable Gay Guyet al.:
You mentioned the “dead give-away” signals that set the ol’ gaydar a-buzzing, such as the rainbow sticker/pin. Any other generally accepted signals? It all seems a bit like secret handshakes to me, but I don’t wanna drag that image into the gutter or anything.
Ahem… well then… what was the advice given earlier re: cruising and straight guy let downs?
[pull out “let down flash cards”]
“I’m flattered… but I’m straight”.
[/put away flash cards]
Oy vey. Should cruising be that overt? Kinda blows (PNI) the “subtle surrepticious glance for a second too long” outta the water.
Another question for the amiable Gay Guyet al.:
You mentioned the “dead give-away” signals that set the ol’ gaydar a-buzzing, such as the rainbow sticker/pin. Any other generally accepted signals? It all seems a bit like secret handshakes to me, but I don’t wanna drag that image into the gutter or anything.
