Ask The Lesbian!

In My Humble Opinion
141

DKW, while I don’t claim to speak for every soft butch out there, I’m more comfortable dressing not so much with the girly. I find a lot of gender expectations to be uncomfortable and decided a long time ago that I was going to dress how I liked, not how I was “supposed” to. This isn’t to say that I don’t wear a dress on occasion. I’m just more of a jeans and t-shirt kind of girl, and when I dress up I’d rather wear pants. I feel that gender stereotypes are there to play with. (Although like I said, I call myself a soft butch when pressed and am completely sprung for femme girls. Dunno what that says about me.)

I’d also argue that most women nowadays don’t usually dress in an extraordinarly feminine manner, it’s just that people expect that lesbians in particular don’t and as such notice it more.

Eve, I think that those idiots and extremists have just as rigid ideas about what it means to be a real woman or man as many of the great evil oppressors. In my experience they generally can’t be reasoned with.

My local lesbian community was taken a bit aback when Cate announced that he’d prefer to be called Corey, thank you very much. For the most part, people took it in stride. (As an aside, now some people are apparantly waiting for me to come out as trans because in the past few months I have taken to insist that people call me Andy instead of my given first name and they’re taking this as a first step. It isn’t, but I’m glad people are being more sensitive about this sort of thing. And it’s fun to hear about conversations about me occasionally turning into a wave of gender ambiguity.)

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I’ll never get my brain wrapped around this. Part of what makes homosexuality so taboo is the violation of gender roles and norms. Thus, just because a transgender person challenges them even further, how can someone have the hypocricy to say “my degree is ok and yours is not”?

On a note related to the discussion about lesbians and makeup as well as gender roles, I have noticed a higher rate of gender nonconformity in the various types of queer community. When I say that, most people think of butch lesbians and nelly gays, but it goes deeper than that. Not all, or even most, lesbians are butch bull-dykes, but in some subtle way a lot of them run against role expectations.

As I sit down and think about it, I was almost immediately comfortable around a woman in my Marketing class, which is not the norm for me and 90% of strangers in both genders. She just radiated this feeling of kinship that I couldn’t pinpoint and I thought she was really cool. There was nothing she wore, no attitudes or affectations to set her apart from most of the other females, but something about how she talked and moved set something off in the back of my brain. Turns out halfway through the semester I pressed her about a study she was doing and yep, she was a lesbian.

I think it works the same way with gay men, but thats a different story for another thread.

143

Shana–

I’m sorry! Your question got shuffled under in the thread. As for the answer–no. My wife and I didn’t have a ceremony. I proposed to her at a Chinese resteraunt and hid her ring in an egg roll. I’m so not lying. No ceremony, though. I’m not big on things like that, but I think if your friend wants a big bash, she should definitely have one! I know a lot of lesbians who have had beautiful weddings. Tell her to do what makes her happy.

Marley23–

No, I didn’t have a GSA at my high school, but I have to say openly gay students didn’t catch a lot of hell. Actually, lesbians didn’t–period. The gay guys did, and we were cliqued together pretty tightly, so it was a “mess with them, mess with us” type thing. But no, no official club.

Bad News Baboon–

No, no children for us. For a lot of reasons, really. I don’t like children, personally, and my lifestyle is certainly not conducive to them. I like to travel frequently, I smoke, etc. There’s some other reasons that I won’t go into as not to hijack this thread into a reproduce vs care for what’s already here debate.

Priceguy–

It all depends on how close I was to your girlfriend. If we were good friends, yeah–I’d talk to her about it. If she were a casual acquantince, I’d be more likely to just sigh and roll my eyes. Does it matter? Compared to, say, the war on Iraq and global warming, probably not. Does it aggravate me personally? Yeah, it does.

Icerigger–

Eh, Tammy Bruce and Camilla Paglia are what they are, I suppose. To be honest, NOW can suck me–for decades they excluded lesbians from their little exclusive club, as they didn’t want to be branded radicals. Whatever.

Tammy Bruce is a jackass whom I hate with the heat of a thousand suns. Camilla Paglia doesn’t bother me as much, but she has no influence or bearing on, negative or positive.

Eve–

I’ve met some transgender-hating lesbians, and they’re usually man-hating lesbians to boot. To put in bluntly, they can get in line right behind Tammy Bruce to suck me. It all comes down to everyone has to have someone to step on. They can take their “womyn-born, womyn-identified” bullshit and fuck right off. Hey, Michigan Women’s Music Festival! I’m looking right at you again! If I had to choose between hanging out with a lesbian and a transgendered MTF (based only on that knowledge), I’d pick the MTF person every time.

I think I got everyone. Holler at me if I missed your question.

:slight_smile:

144

Say it with me, QueerGeekGirl–preview is your friend.

Once more, with feeling!

Preview. Is. My. Friend.

:smack:

145

You said earlier that your porn interests required the element of seduction. One of the primary male fantasies is the seduction of the straight girl by the naughty lesbian. Have you ever done that or known anyone who has? And if so ,what was the motivation behind it? Power? Control? Naughtiness?

146

dzvfd

147

Ignore the brainfart, I typed it to get to the preview menu to do my tags lazily, and hit submit instead of preview.

Eve, I put some posts in this thread about lesbians and transgendered people. Personally, I deal with people on the basis of whether they are a prat or not, everything else is secondary at best. Lesbians (or anyone) who talk shit about or to TG peoples get sorted swiftly and firmly into “prat”. The multiple aspects of bigotry within the “queer community” are shameful.

148

The former question has to do with feminists who still think Janice Raymond is relevant despite the fact that Sandy Stone intellectually bitch-slapped her years ago. And, frankly, if you’re a feminist with a brain you’ll make the connection between the fact that people have a right to tell their stories, the stories of transgendered women are compelling and say a great deal about gender politics, and you’d be an idiot NOT to accept transgendered folks based on some now discredited ideology.

Which brings us to the latter question: if they’re reasonable, then they’ve already dealt with their transphobia. If not, then their mind is permanently shut and they’re no better than some of the right-wing folk who won’t shut up about the filthiness of homosexuality in the face of overwhelming evidence that we are, in fact, rather boring people with typical relationships.

Now about Tammy Bruce and Camille Paglia: IMVHO I lump them in with Norah Vincent as a group of people who think they can substitute notoriety for intelligence. You can throw Andy Sullivan in there, too. Their whole schtick is “queer and politically incorrect!” Yawn.

149

OK, I’ve asked several lesbians this question, and never gotten a straight answer (HAR!):

What has to happen, physically, for you to lose your virginity? I ask because all of the sexual things that a lesbian would normally do (“normally” meaning without the aid of a toy or some apparatus) would not be enough to remove one’s virgnity by heterosexual standard. If I, as a straight man, have given/receive oral sex dozens of times, but have never had intercourse, I’m still a virgin. Is there simply a different physical standard for lesbians? Or does “virginity” as a concept even mean anything in the lesbian community?

150

You are? I would say you weren’t. Virginity is another of these “fluid concepts” (bwahaha), my call is “if you consider it sex, it’s sex”. Maybe another way of looking at it would also be “if you would consider it cheating it’s sex”. Either way, I wouldn’t call you a virgin in the case stated above.

I think everyone defines these things their own way.
Worth bearing in mind is that many lesbians have had sex with men before they have had sex with women. In my “sample group” there are a hell of a lot more “orthodox gay men” than “orthodox lesbians”. This seems to be changing amongst the younger folks tho as people are coming to terms with their sexuality quicker and more easily.

151

I would say that I lost my virginity when I was messing around with another woman with intent to orgasm. That’s just a personal definition, though.

Also, there’s a great lesbian button that says “technical virgin for life, ask me how.” I wouldn’t get it, but it’s amusing.

152

Question for Iteki & QGG: you spent pg 2 of this thread getting upset that het men find lesbian sex arousing. My question is: Is it the mere fact we find it arousing, or that we don’t see that the depictions of it that’s our frame of reference’s are unrealistic that you object to?

Question to all: When I first became a Doper, I asked a question about lesbian couples having kids. Did I completely pull my info out of my ass, or was I thinking of something real? (put my name in search engine(thread called “what is this called?”) (VERY early thread)

153

Okay, I’ve been building up my courage for a day or three to ask my own questions:

1. What exactly is "lesbian sex? Is it cunningius? Mutual masturbation? Playing with dildos and strap-ons? All of the above? None of the above? What if you don’t have any toys handy, or the batteries are dead?

2. Do lesbians enjoy penetration? Or is lesbian sex clitoral?

3. Can guys join in? Yes, I know, lesbians aren’t sexually attracted to guys, but if a guy wanted to “join in” and do whatever you asked him to, would you accept? Or would his presence be too “icky” and knock you out of an amorous mood?

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll go back to lurking here…

154

rjung: your last question will get you FLAMED!!! Didn’t you read the thread?!

155

SNec–

I consider the first time I had sex the loss of my virginity. I don’t buy the old “down there is bad, up here is rad” thing of doing everything but penetration and calling oneself a virgin.

erictelevision–

I don’t get upset that men find sex between two females arousing–I don’t personally consider it lesbian sex. I do find it a bit offensive however, that the term “lesbian sex” is applied to what you see on the Spice Channel. I won’t go into it at great length (I did upthread), but that’s where I stand. Semantics? Maybe.

No idea what you’re referring to on the lesbians-with-kids question. Tried searching but couldn’t find anything.

rjung–

Lesbian sex is (to me) sex between two honest-to-god lesbians. Not two experimental college girls, not two bisexual woman, but two lesbians. It may involve all of the things you listed or none.

Some lesbians enjoy penetration. I do personally. Other lesbians don’t. It’s truly an individual thing.

No. Men aren’t welcome in my bedroom. Neither is a third woman, a transgendered person, a cat, a rhinocerous, or a unicorn with three horns. In all seriousness–I highly doubt you’re going to find many (if any) lesbians who are going to allow a man to join in sexually. And I think your question there was a joke. Silly boy.

:slight_smile:

156

QueerGeekGirl, personally I’d consider sex between two women “lesbian sex”, no matter if they’re gay or bisexual. If I have sex with a man, isn’t that gay sex?

You seem to put great stock in semantics. Do you know why that is?

157

Well, I was being serious, since I was curious over how much of the “sex act” was physical (sensations) vs. psychological (appeal), but if probing further means invoking flames, I’ll just drop the matter.

158

Thanks a lot QGG for answering…I think your proposal story is just so darn adorable! You put it in an egg roll?? Love it! You definitely get moucho points for creativity! Big weddings are overrated anyway. My husband and I did it quick and dirty (uh, the wedding that is) and I don’t regret it one bit!

159

Eric: I am in no way upset that het guys like the idea of two girls together. I get upset when het guys hassle me and my girlf, refuse to piss off, offer money, and start shouting abuse when they finally realise that, no, he can’t come home with us.

rj:

  1. yep it is all of the above and much, much more. It varies couple to couple, but everything you listed is stuff that some women do. You missed a whole hella stuff tho :slight_smile: I am much too much of a prude to go into details, but (assuming you are a guy) imagine you were with a girl, and could do anything you wanted except put your dick in her ass or cunt. Anything else you can come up with goes. That is more or less your answer.

  2. Again speaking for the great lesbian masses, some do, some don’t. I know it is a very unsatisfying answer, but thats how it goes when you take a group of people who have really nothing other than gender and sexual orientation in common. So, yeah some lebs like penetration, some prefer clitoral, some preferer vaginal, some prefer anal, some prefer oral, some prefer toys, some prefer hands, whatever you can imagine, somone preferers it.

  3. Don’t make the offer man. Sit instead and wait to be invited. Do not hold your breath. If anyone you know wants you to join in, you will be asked for sure, cos there is like zero fear of rejection :stuck_out_tongue: Await an invitation, and really, don’t hold your breath.

God, my cheeks are burning, could I be more of a catholic school girl :doh:

160

Oh sure, answer the stupid “Can a man join?” question but ignore my earnest question.

:: pouts ::

Maybe I’ll just start my own thread.