Bushbots, since I can't ask for your brains, get yer asses in here...

[woodstockbirdybird]

@ivylass

As God said on Joan of Arcadia…

“There’s no answer I can give that would make any sense to you.”

You don’t want to listen. You want to attack. So there is no point in having a serious discussion with you.

Go here if you want more answers.

Sorry, I know this was early in the post, but I had to laugh when I read the link.

ivylass, here are a couple of reasons you gave for supporting Bush:

@ivylass

I believe the war on Iraq and the war on terror are one and the same. Despite everything, he has not waffled, he has not flip-flopped. He truly believes that he is protecting America. And since we haven’t had another terrorist attack on US soil since 2001, I think he’s doing a good job.

You believe the war on Iraq and the war on terror to be one and the same? Why the fuck is that? Did you hear some talking head spout the line somewhere and decide to adopt the position without needing an explanation as to why they’re the same thing? Because you sure as hell don’t present any evidence for your belief, and I can’t think of any other reason for you to say that.

Oh, and since we didn’t have another attack on U.S. soil since 2001, he must be doing a good job? There’s some solid reasoning. Using your simpplistic logic, I could say to you that he’s done a shitty job, since we had an attack on 9/11 in the first place. I don’t actually believe this, mind you, but I did write something similar in a paper I wrote on why Carter should be re-elected back in '79. Of course, I was 9 years old at the time.

@ivylass

I did not trust Kerry. I believed he would turn over the security of this country to the UN, a corrupt organization that favors terrorists. He talked of passing a global test, and that it was fine for soldiers to die for the UN, but not okay to die for America.

OK, obviously you do get all your political beliefs from talking heads without putting any thought into it yourself. The UN is a “corrupt organization that favors terrorists”? Uh, cite? Jesus, I didn’t think even hardcore neocons went that far. Maybe you should move underground, so the black UN helicopters won’t be able to read your mind as easily. Though they’ll still be able to mutilate your cattle.

Also, Kerry saying it was “fine for soldiers to die for the UN, but not okay to die for America”? Cite again, please. Also, please show me how the troops in Iraq are dying for America. Maybe you have your 5th grade essay on the subject and we can compare our writing styles. If the teacher’s finished grading it, I mean.

Seriously, you’re doing more harm for your side than good with these uber-retarded comments. Let the more rational, articulate adults on the right make the case. Then regurgitate what they say. You still won’t be thinking for yourself, but at least you’ll sound slightly less stupid.

Sorry for the hijack, but I didn’t see anybody else call bullshit, and it pissed me off.

[Starving_Artist]

@Polycarp

In view of what you said in your next post, answering gobear, I would like to make a request. not to be acted on until both your response and that of one of the GD moderators has been posted to the affirmative in this thread.

That request would be for a GD thread that would calmly analyze the benefits and liabilities of the present situation there, perhaps with Tamerlane or another expert on the area commenting on the ethnopolitical realities we should be aware of regarding Iraq in a manner that is not (or minimally) judgmental of American policies. The request would be for you to start an OP outlining what good you think is being done there. The reason for the moderator request is that, as I request it, courtesy would be mandated in that thread – absolutely no hot tempers or accusations of toeing a party line (pro or anti Bush) allowed.

I frankly think that we’re up to our ass in alligators, and are making no progress toward draining the swamp. You clearly feel otherwise to some degree, based on that statement. I’d like opportunity to quietly review your arguments, question them politely, and perhaps build some common ground on this most volatile of subjects.

I realize I’m asking a lot of the moderators in suggesting a thread of this sort, and I would not be surprised to hear a “no, we cannot enforce that rule for that thread” from one of them. But I for one welcome… No, I for one would like to hear your perspective on the positives of the Iraq situation and why you hold that view.

That would be fine with me, Polycarp, but I suspect you are one of only a very few possible contributors to such a thread that would actually be able to discuss the situation in the way you suggest.

However, I feel like I’ve already said everything I have to contribute on this subject in numerous other threads, and many times over at that. I’m pretty sure you’ve already seen what I’ve had to say and reading them again may strike you as just more of the same-old, same-old.

But if not, let me make an alternative suggestion based upon the respect I’ve developed for you and the knowledge I have that your interest is genuine. What about an email discussion between just the two of us under the same conditions that you suggested for the thread?

This would leave out the ethnopolitical experts you suggest, experts which I do feel would add significantly to the discussion, but it would allow us to discuss things in a constructive way that I just don’t believe would be possible here in an open forum.

Regards,
SA

[Starving_Artist]

@GaWd

SA-

I’m not asking for your opinions on the war. THis is the second time I have re-iterated my request to you. I’m asking you to detail for me, the differences between your optimism and our “pessimism”.

No, I want to see evidence of a situation that you see as rosy and I see gloom and doom. After all, if the difference was mere perspective, it should be simple to show me where you and yours cheered whilst me and mine booed. If not evidence, then at least a hypothetical? Something? You’re letting me down…

Well, duh.

Sam

Well, first of all, the belligerent tone of your response to my last post to you makes me not really care what you want to know, or why – but I am curious as to how you would expect me to explain to you why I’m optimisic about the war and its eventual results without explaining what those things themselves are. Wouldn’t that be like asking me to detail why I like elephants but telling me you’re not interested in what appeals to me about elephants?

[GaWd]

@Starving Artist

Well, first of all, the belligerent tone of your response to my last post to you makes me not really care what you want to know, or why – but I am curious as to how you would expect me to explain to you why I’m optimisic about the war and its eventual results without explaining what those things themselves are. Wouldn’t that be like asking me to detail why I like elephants but telling me you’re not interested in what appeals to me about elephants?

Pardon the tone, SA, but your haughty, egotistical, evasive “I’m not going to answer your questions” responses are getting tiresome.

You may not be able to separate one from the other, but that’s immaterial. I am not asking you for your support for the war and I wanted that plainly known. I simply want to know about your deep optimism in our activities in Iraq and how that compares to my difference in perspective as you allege.

If you cannot explain why without rehashing your support for the war, then I don’t know what to tell you. It certainly weakens your position, but you don’t seem to want to play by the rules so I’ll drop it.

Sam

[Starving_Artist]

@GaWd

…so I’ll drop it.

Sam

Well, given that the reasons I support the war are the exact same reasons as to why I’m optimistic about it, I guess that would be a good idea. I have supported the war because I think it will bring about certain results which I think the war justifies. The fact that I think these results will occur is why I’m optimistic about it. Therefore, how can I tell you why I’m optimistic about what’s going on over there without going through, yet again, the reasons I’ve already given numerous times for my support of it?

And just for the record, I’m not being “haughty and evasive.” I’ve just grown tired of saying the same thing over and over and over again. The OP wanted to know how it could be that we conservatives could support the war when it seemed so obvious to him that the war was a disaster. My answer to him was an attempt to explain what I percieve as the basic difference in our respective points of view. He didn’t ask why I supported it, and I didn’t offer. I simply offered what I thought was the difference between those who thought that things were going hell in a handbasket regarding the war and those of us who don’t.

It wasn’t asked in the OP that I outline the reasons for my support of the war, and I didn’t post in anticipation of outlining them. You are the one insisting on a detailed explanation as to why I’m optimistic about it. If you don’t already know (which I doubt) and aren’t just looking for an argument, you can find the answers in almost any war-related thread I’ve participated in.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Starving Artist

Well, first of all, the belligerent tone of your response to my last post to you makes me not really care what you want to know, or why – but I am curious as to how you would expect me to explain to you why I’m optimisic about the war and its eventual results without explaining what those things themselves are. Wouldn’t that be like asking me to detail why I like elephants but telling me you’re not interested in what appeals to me about elephants?

Hello Starving Artist. Way back at the start of the thread, I asked why you supported the way the occupation has been run-I also asked some specific questions of Danceswithcats. I can trust we both agree that the tone on my posts are not belligerent-I really need to understand your point of view. Can you read Naomi Klein’s thesis on the occupation-Baghdad Year Zero…

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

…and I can independently cite nearly everything that Ms Klein talks about if you do not trust her interpretation. Now if Ms Klein’s interpretation of events are correct, the United States have invaded another country, ** sold off all of its assests, ran the country with interns found on the internet with no experience, converted the entire economy to an experimental free market not found anywhere else in the world, and delayed making decisions that drove people to the insurgency. ** If you read the cite that pushed RedFury over the edge, you will see that the United States are now conducting traffic control by throwing bottles of water at cars. Fortunately they haven’t been reduced to throwing Snyders of Hanover Jalapeño Pieces at cars yet, but honestly, ask yourself, how under control is the situation in Iraq when soldiers are throwing bottles of water at cars?
Now myself and others understand your need to feel optimistic about the situation-but what evidence can you provide? The reason I cite specific instances is I’m trying to get at least one war supporter to comment on them. What are your thoughts on the missing 8.8 billion? The new free market Iraq? The hypocrisy of the US troops that now occupy schools and palaces, after decrying Saddam for doing the same?

[GaWd]

@Starving Artist

And just for the record, I’m not being “haughty and evasive.”

Well, seeing as you seem to think that only you and Poly can participate in a thread topic as he laid out the rules, I’d say you were being a touch egotistical and haughty. As for your evasiveness, I’ve requested at least three times to explain you misconceived notion that your perspective on the war and outlook on it is what separates you from I.

It wasn’t asked in the OP that I outline the reasons for my support of the war, and I didn’t post in anticipation of outlining them. You are the one insisting on a detailed explanation as to why I’m optimistic about it. If you don’t already know (which I doubt) and aren’t just looking for an argument, you can find the answers in almost any war-related thread I’ve participated in.

If you will pardon me, again, I am not the OP, and I have been asking for something specific from the start of this thread. You’ve evaded my direct questions everytime I asked. You laid out an idea about the gulf separating our two camps and haven’t yet explained it.

Ignoring your ego for a moment, I do not know your opinions on the war because I am not a Starving Artist groupie. I don’t follow you around from thread to thread to see what your opinions on matters are and I am not going to search for posts from you over the course of the last 2 years of war talk just to find out.

I am not just looking for an argument. I am looking for a cogent explanation on why you think that it is mere “pessimism” on my part. I posted a very thoughtful, complete post explaining why I felt you were wrong, and I still feel this way. Optimism isn’t a reason to charge into a burning building without protective gear, dear Starving Artist.

Sam

[elucidator]

Saw something interesting tonight. Saw Lehrer, never miss on Fridays so’s I can see Mark Shields/David Brooks, its kind of Hannity and His Bitch for leftys. Anyway, Lehrer was asking Brooks if he saw any reason for optimism, and the embarassment was palpable as he reached for something positive to say, and in the end was left with something like “Well, if by some miracle this all turns out good, then, it will be good. That would be good.” (Caveat: my perspective is not universally acknowledged for impartial…)

Anyway, he goes on to relate a story about dining out with a big gathering of other Torys…pundits, talking heads, media whores…all in all, a universally conservative bunch. After sumptious dining, the question was tossed out: how many here supported the Bushivik position on Iraq a year ago? Universal assent. How many now? About half.

Interesting, no?

[Nightime]

What most people don’t understand about the Bush team and their followers is that they were never scared or worried about Iraq or terrorists. The only people that really had reason to be scared (people living in likely terrorist targets) voted for Kerry by a wide margin.

This is the root of Bush team optimism. They feel so much stronger and more powerful than the people they torture and kill, that they can’t imagine ever getting their comeuppance. They can’t imagine any of their actions having significantly negative results for them personally.

And hey, their optimism may well be justified. The U.S. is still the most powerful nation. We will be able to kill and dehumanize with impunity for a while yet.
In my optimistic moments, I imagine the U.S. population suddenly waking up and realizing that killing, dehumanizing, and torture, all with lack of concern or any competent planning to minimize it, are not the seeds of good will and harmony. However, I fear that it would not matter. As long as we are the most powerful, people will be remain optimistic, no matter what evil we do in the world.

[El_Kabong]

I’ve gotta say that Starving Artist’s stem-winding non-reponses here put me in mind of a conductor I knew back when used to work for the railroad. This guy, every shift, would spend more time and effor trying to get out of work than if he just went ahead and switched the cars anyway.

Here’s a guy who, having some time ago apparently appointed himself Official SDMB Explainer of Conservatism for the Liberal and Slightly Slow, but when presented with a golden opportunity to do some of that explaining that he’s so very proud of, we get instead five or six posts in which he goes on about how he’s not gonna explain anything, when he probably could have put forward a quick summary of his views in about 1/5 the space. Instead, we’re supposed to go back and search months of previous threads to tease the pearls out of the oyster of his massive intellect.

Well, thanks, SA, but there are more important things to do and more interesting threads to do them in. Great job, as always you’ve done us an immense favor just by showing up; you can sit down and take a rest now. Really.

[peri]

@Starving Artist

This is exactly why I haven’t bother to explain, yet again, what good I think is being accomplished in Iraq. It accomplishes nothing but to provide fodder for more argument. Those who are asking what good is being accomplished in Iraq aren’t really interested in knowing…they just want to attack whatever is said.

Starving Artist, I have avoided almost all the war threads, so have little knowledge of your opinions regarding the war beyond what I have read in this thread. I truly do want to know what good you believe is being accomplished. Unless it’s to ask for clarification of a point, I will make no comments. Thank you.

[Starving_Artist]

@Banquet Bear

Hello Starving Artist. Way back at the start of the thread, I asked why you supported the way the occupation has been run-I also asked some specific questions of Danceswithcats. I can trust we both agree that the tone on my posts are not belligerent…

Indeed, you can. I didn’t respond to your post because, number one, it presupposed certain things that in my opinion are false in their premise, but which I didn’t have the time to address. And secondly, your post was, shall we say…voluminous? It was clear that a great deal of time and thought had gone into posting it, I didn’t feel I had time to do it justice.

I’m not trying to play games with you guys, although I can see (at this late stage) how it may appear that way. I’m just tired of going over these things over and over again, especially when I know that nothing will come of it. Those of you who are the war’s opponents will remain the war’s opponents, and those of us who support the war will continue to support it. All that is likely to happen is that I will spend the better part of three days arguing with people about it.

I suggested the email discussion with Polycarp not because I want to continue to pontificate about the war, but because I respect him. He obviously has a genuine desire to understand my thinking in regard to the war, and given the amount of thought he’d obviously given to the idea of starting a thread to try to discuss it rationally, I felt that out of a certain sense of fair play he deserved answers. I offered to talk to him about it privately because I believe he and I can talk about it in the spirit he suggests, and that I can answer his questions and give him a chance to rebut the things I might say without my having to contend with a lot of other people whose only interest in what I might have to say would lie in arguing about it.

[elucidator]

@Starving Artist

… whose only interest in what I might have to say would lie in arguing about it.

Well, yeah. You were expecting us to sit and your feet in awe and take notes?

[elucidator]

“At your feet and take notes”. Great, now I got digital dyslexia.

[Starving_Artist]

Oh, “awe,” my ass! You know better than that and I know you do.

[RedFury]

@Starving Artist

I offered to talk to him about it privately because I believe he and I can talk about it in the spirit he suggests, and that I can answer his questions and give him a chance to rebut the things I might say without my having to contend with a lot of other people whose only interest in what I might have to say would lie in arguing about it.

Rebut, argue…tomato, tomahto

Where I come from we call that “weaseling out”…well, not really, I’m a Spaniard and English is not yet the official language AFAIK.

But surely you get my drift.

[RedFury]

@elucidator

“At your feet and take notes”. Great, now I got digital dyslexia.

Ym Dog! tseb od gnihtemos tuoba ti noos!

[rjung]

I’d loan Starving Artist my copy of Why Do People Hate America? (highly recommended, BTW), but I think his brain would explode after having his rose-colored “optimistic” delusions so thoroughly shattered.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Starving Artist

Indeed, you can. I didn’t respond to your post because, number one, it presupposed certain things that in my opinion are false in their premise, but which I didn’t have the time to address. And secondly, your post was, shall we say…voluminous? It was clear that a great deal of time and thought had gone into posting it, I didn’t feel I had time to do it justice.

…what I think everybody wants to know, is what, in your opinion, was false in their premise?

[Starving_Artist]

@RedFury

Rebut, argue…tomato, tomahto

Where I come from we call that “weaseling out”…well, not really, I’m a Spaniard and English is not yet the official language AFAIK.

But surely you get my drift.

I don’t think anybody who has read much in the way of my posts to this board would characterize my posting style as weaseling.

But nice try, though…