Chilvary is SO dead...

[Stiletto]

Okay. I’m going to start this off by putting on my asbestos underwear, as I thoroughly expect to get flamed for this by somebody…but at this point I feel compelled not just to attempt to explain myself, but to defend myself.

Originally posted by Podkayne ***
IMHO, this is just another well-intentioned form of discrimination. It fosters resentment between the sexes for one to be treated preferentially. Men are owed exactly the same level of respect, politeness, and consideration as women. I am appalled at the notion that a man who was having the same sort of difficulty as I would not be offered help as promptly as I might, simply because I am a woman–particularly if that fact causes resentment among men toward women, as I think it would inevitably would, especially considering the way some women complain when they don’t recieve special treatment.*

Well, if that kind of resentment is caused in part by some women complaning that they don’t receive ‘preferential treatment’, then I would recommend that you take that particular argument up with them. I am not a woman, and I’m neither demanding preferential treatment for myself, nor am I insisting on special treatment for women. I simply attempted to explain why I did the things I did. If you want to say “no, thank you”, then that is well within your rights. And I’ll respect it, and walk away, thinking nothing more about it.

As for my actions, and actions like mine causing that kind of resentment, I will grant you the logical deduction that it is a possibility, Podkayne. But if you take it to its logical conclusion, then I have a problem with the premise. Women are paid less in many, if not most, fields in which they work. They are discriminated against in many of those fields by men who do not believe that they are good enough, and who think that they have no place there. In comparison to those men, who are the foe in your battle for equality, I think the overall amount of resentment caused by me opening a few doors is pretty inconsequential. If not non-existant. If they already resent you for things like taking ‘their’ jobs, or working in ‘their’ field, then I really don’t think that me opening a few doors for you is going to engender any further resentment or hostility.

Aside from that, you said that you thought the actions themselves were perfectly acceptable, if the person needed them. Well, by that token, and taking a cue from Sauron: who is going to know the reason I’m doing it, other than politeness, unless I’m wearing a fucking sign around my neck that says “I’m only doing this because you have a uterus”?

As for not offering the same help to a man, I believe I covered that, as well. If it looks like somebody needs help, I will generally go out of my way to help them.

**
I find the idea that I’m entitled to these favors because I as a woman I am capable of childbirth just repellent. Yuck. You hold the door for me because I have a uterus? There are a number of reasons why I’d like to think that I’m worthy of respect; biology is not high on the list. While I can imagine that I would appreciate a little extra help while in a gravid state (and I was happy to fetch and carry and help out my pregnant friend when I visited her) I can assure you that at the present moment, I am not pregnant, and I do not plan to become so (Sauron’s overatures notwithstanding), so there is no need for you to render extra assistance.**

If you find the idea repellent, my apologies. But I never said that it was the only reason for anything. I respect people in general, and human life, a great deal. And I am offended by accusation that ‘having a uterus’ is the only reason for the things I do. I didn’t say it was the only reason. I simply said that I thought that it deserved some additional consideration. I may not want children right now either, but from the practical viewpoint of continuing the species on a large scale, women are more important. shrug If you don’t agree, that’s also your right. As for not rendering ‘extra assistance’, like I said before. A “No, thank you” is perfectly appropriate.

**
And if you want to redress the discrimination faced by women, well, guess what, big fella, fixin’ a flat tire or holdin’ the door ain’t gonna do it. You could fix a million flat tires and pull out a million chairs, and give up a million bus seats, and women will still be paid less for the same work, no more than 10% of physicists and astornomers will be women, and the fact will remain that an even lower percentage than that will be in tenured faculty positions in will be filled by women. I won’t think, “Golly, I’m having a terrible time finding a job with competitive pay, but at least this nice gentleman helped me carry those heavy boxes.” No way, no how.
**

I believe I said ‘counteract’, not ‘redress’. I’m not saying that what I do for my own reasons is going to fix the problem. I’m simply attempting to mitigate some of the results. So, no, fixing a million flat tires isn’t going to make women equal. It’s not going to make discrimination go away. But what it will do is possibly make some people happy, make a few lives a little easier, make a few people smile that wouldn’t have before. You got a problem with that. As long as I’m doing the right thing, you have no right to tell me that I’m doing it for the ‘wrong reasons’. Those thoughts and reasons are my own. You have your own. And I’m not planning on wearing any signs.

**
Do me a favor: don’t do me any favor that you would hesitate to do for a man.

**

I think you’ve already made the point that you don’t want me doing you any favors. As I apparently am no better than any of the other sexist bastards out there, I won’t be doing you any favors.

I personally think that it would be a lovely thing if women were treated equally. I’d especially love to have more women in the computer field, as most of the ones I’ve met tend to be quite a bit better than their male counterparts. But no matter what I do, I end up with some woman disagreeing with me, or my actions. So I will simply go on with what I’m doing, with the hope that there are women out there like lezler who appreciate what I’m trying to do, rather than just lambasting me for thinking the wrong things while I’m doing my best to help.

-Stil

[Podkayne]

Okay, fine, Stilleto. I’m obviously not going to change your mind, and I see this as a very small part of what’s wrong with society’s attitude toward women, and you have made it clear that you not the sort of pompous gallant who makes a great show of chivalry at women’s expense. It would be foolish for me to engender bad blood by continuing to reiterate my position, so I shall let it drop.

Podkayne bows grandly while opening the door

Can I buy you a drink at the cash bar? I’d love to hear your opinions on the status of women in the tech sector.

[Stiletto]

*Originally posted by Podkayne *
**Okay, fine, Stilleto. I’m obviously not going to change your mind, and I see this as a very small part of what’s wrong with society’s attitude toward women, and you have made it clear that you not the sort of pompous gallant who makes a great show of chivalry at women’s expense. It would be foolish for me to engender bad blood by continuing to reiterate my position, so I shall let it drop.

Podkayne bows grandly while opening the door

Can I buy you a drink at the cash bar? I’d love to hear your opinions on the status of women in the tech sector.

**

bows in return Why thank you, Podkayne, that would be lovely. Do they have a decent single-malt scotch selection?

[DaToad]

If you are a stranger, I will address you as sir, or ma’am if you are an adult.

I will offer to help if I see you struggle with what ever it is you are doing. I will open the door, and hold it open, for you to pass.

If I am driving you, since my vehicle does not have auto-locks, I will unlock and open the passenger door for you. This applies to men or women.

If you are a lady, I will close the car door for you. Not because you can’t do it, but because I want to be polite. If we are on a date, I will open and close the doors for you, if you let me.

If you are a lady, I will push in your chair at dinner. I will rise in my chair if you leave the table. I will get up when you return and push in your chair. I do this because I was taught to be respectful, and to use good manners.

If I see that you are having car problems, I will offer help. I am a better than average mechanic, and I have tools, jumper cables, rags, and hand cleaner in the tool box in my truck. This offer applies to men or women. If you don’t want my help, tell me so, and I leave.

I don’t believe that being polite or using good manners is a bad thing. This is the way I was raised, and I’m just way to old to change.

[GKW]

Stop your whinging you little twit! (Isn’t that the proper way to address someone in the pit?) You don’t have the strength or know-how to untwist an oil cap? Call a garage, ask for help, or call for a cab. Take some resposibility for yourself and stop blaming others for your ineptitude. Another thing, what does your attire have to do with the price of eggs? Like if you were wearing jeans & a sweat shirt, you wouldn’t have required assisstance? Chivalry or common courtesy really has nothing to do with your passive- aggressive behavior.

[matt]

FallenAngel said:
"When I’m out with a woman, be it in a personal or professional environment, I stand up when she returns to the table. A couple of years ago my CEO and I were having dinner with two editors and the publisher (a woman) of a trade magazine. Kelly left to use the bathroom. When she returned to the table, I stood up. She was flattered and my CEO and the two editors felt like rude chumps, which they should have."

I find that bizarre. At least holding doors open for people serves some purpose. Why do you stand up when women return to the table? Would you have been flattered if Kelly had stood up when you returned to the table? (Out of respect for you, because you’re a man, and men and women are different?) If not, why not?

If I’m driving and a woman is my passenger, I’ll open her door first before getting into the car myself.
Does that mean you get into the car first and open the door from the inside if your passenger is a man? What if it’s a man deserving of extra respect, such as someone who’s just won a Nobel prize for medicine? What if it’s an old man?

I’ll help a woman on with her coat if she is part of my party.
Would you help a man on with his coat? Suppose a woman took your coat and held it up for you to put on? Again, out of respect?

I won’t do any of these things because the woman is weak or inferior, I will do it because I respect women. Period.
Could you explain what you mean by “respect” in this context? How does it differ from the respect you give to men, for whatever reason?

tuzi said: "Ok, I am guilty of believing in chivalry. I dream of knights in shining armor with nothing to do but run around rescuing me from dragons. ( Yes, I am a woman, and horrors, from the deep South). Dragons being scarce, flat tires, oil leaks, break downs, doors seats on buses, heavy grocery sacks will do.
That’s tragic. Seriously. That’s as tragic as a man who dreams of women with nothing to do but keep his house clean, cook his meals and iron his clothes.

lezlers, I agree that if you obviously having difficulty, someone should at least have asked if you’d like some help. But among a lot of guys, offering to help a guy with something is an implication that they can’t do it themselves, which is a no-no. (Yes it’s dumb, but I’m guilty of it myself. I’m working on it.) In this age of equality, maybe the guys were respecting you enough to assume you didn’t want any help. Or maybe they didn’t want to get oil on their clothes!

[lezlers]

To GW: How is being dissapointed about the apparent lack of kindness and helpfulness of strangers passive agressive? Obviously you’ve never held a door for someone or helped someone in need in your entire life, and it really saddens me to know that there are people like you out in the world. At least some other people had excuses, however far fetched they may have been (intimidated, ect.) you however, are apparently just a jerk.

To Matt: It really suprised me that all of the things that have been mentioned seem like foreign concepts to you. Who the hell raised you? Obviously someone who had no idea how a lady should be treated…something tells me you don’t exactly have the ladies swooning…

[matt]

Lezlers, you said yourself:

"I OFFER to help people who look like they need it. And I’m a female. Go figure. It’s a matter of kindness and thoughtfulness."

and:
"I didn’t even NEED help people, that’s not the point. It’s a matter of manners. … Why is it such a big deal? Why is everyone putting up such a fight about helping out someone? What’s wrong with people today?"

and:
"I help old ladies and old men carry bags if they look like they’re struggling. Sometimes I’ll pay the toll for the car behind me even if I don’t know them. They’re called random acts of kindness people"

All of which does you great credit. Having been raised by baboons in a hole in the ground, I have no discriminatory powers and so I have to help people universally, along the lines you describe.

If I’d been raised right I’d know that running around doing strange little things to make women feel special is the way to make them swoon. Thanks for the tip, but I don’t like women that swoon!

[GKW]

Lessie- read and learn:

Passive aggressive = Expression of aggressive impulses through passive behavior.

A typical passive-aggressive person exhibits at least four of the following characteristics:

• passively resists fulfilling routine social and occupational tasks
• complains of being misunderstood and unappreciated by others
• is sullen and argumentative
• unreasonably criticizes and scorns authority
• expresses resentment toward those perceived as more fortunate
• voices exaggerated and persistent complaints of personal misfortune
• alternates between hostile defiance and contrition

Apparently, you frequently find yourself in situations, which you feel you are unable to cope. Instead of problem solving or asking for help, you irritably claim men stare at you! You blame them for your troubles. You pout and sulk while you’re ineptly doing your job. Then you come here to lash-out at men and beg for sympathy at the same time. To paraphrase," Men are evil and stupid they won’t help me even when I’m wearing high-heels and a skirt." You lack task persistence and are egocentric. I suggest the next time you feel this happening to you take a different approach. You will be a better person for it.

I thoroughly enjoy helping people and believe you should treat others the way you would like to be treated. I don’t keep a running tally in my head though; I don’t expect a reward for my good deeds.

[Podkayne]

*Originally posted by lezlers *
Obviously you’ve never held a door for someone or helped someone in need in your entire life, and it really saddens me to know that there are people like you out in the world.

*Originally posted by lezlers *
They’re called random acts of kindness people, obviously a foreign concept to most of you.

lezlers, dear, can we have a word?

I suggest that you curb your tendency to make uncharitable assumptions about the behaviour of people who disagree with you. If you cannot avoid making them, well, for God’s sake, don’t post them, because it reflects poorly on you.

“I think you should do favors equally for men and women,” means “I hold doors for both men and women,” not, “I’ve never helped anyone.” Not agreeing with lezlers on one issue does not mean diametrically opposed to everything lezlers believes in.

[sub]This has been a public service announcement on “How to Be Well-Liked at SDMB.”[/sub]

Stilleto, well, IRL I confess that a single-malt scotch has never passed my lips–only inferior polymalts. But with the magic of cyberspace, anything is possible. Whee! Single malts all around! the gay clinking of glasses

[pepperlandgirl]

When I was living in Utah, I drove a car that constantly over-heated. One day it got all the way to H on the gauge, so I pulled over and waited for it to cool down. I opened the hood, thinking it may help (I was young, didn’t know anything about cars), and I didn’t have any coolant in my car. (I had just used the last of it, and was on my way to the store to get more). I’d say 1 in 7 cars pulled over (all men) and asked me if I needed any help, a life, the use of a cell phone, etc etc. I turned them all down because I felt I had things under control. It was nice that they offered to help though.

My husband will open the door for everybody. Young, old, male, female, healthy, handicapped…it doesn’t matter. And he has never gotten a glare or a rude word. As for me, I try to follow his example, and if someone opens the door for me, I always say “thank you”.

Just thought I’d share.