Chilvary is SO dead...

The BBQ Pit
61

Sauron:

#1 This is the pit. Bitching is what we do here.

#2 I have noticed that lately, this has happened time and time again to me. It isn’t one instance out of 50. It’s all the damn time, so yes, I am generalizing the behavior. And how is wondering what’s going on rude? As I’ve stated in all of my posts, I continue to help people out when it looks as if they need it. I don’t let the fact that in my opinion, people are becoming less and less willing to offer assistance to strangers, and that men are seemingly acting in a less and less “gentlemanly” way, affect the way I treat people. It pisses me off, yes, but i’m not letting it jade me. That was the point of the post.

62

Thank you for enlightening me on the vagaries of the Pit.

I have a difficult time accepting blanket statements from others about a race, a gender, a nationality, or any other semi-homogenous group. Such statements lead to prejudice, in my opinion.

Forgive me for not realizing that you were suffering from this malady of non-chivalry at a constant pace. Since you only alluded to two instances in your OP, I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that these were the two specific causes of your rant. I didn’t realize you were faced with this type of situation day-in and day-out.

Allow me to turn the rant around. Suppose I started a Pit thread on the spendthrift nature of women. I base this rant on two previous relationships with women, both of whom spent money (mine and theirs) with frivolous abandon. Using those two instances, I complain in my rant about women in general, their lack of fiscal prowess, and their willingness to burn my money as though they were making an offering to Baal. If you were a woman who prided herself on her fiscal responsibility, you might take offense at such statements as “What’s up with women today? Can y’all just not handle money? Is there some genetic defect that forces you to spend whatever you have?”

Just trying to point out that not all men behave the way you’ve indicated in the OP, and an insinuation that they do is baseless.

63

Ok, I am guilty of believing in chivalry. I dream of knights in shining armor with nothing to do but run around rescuing me from dragons. ( Yes, I am a woman, and horrors, from the deep South). Dragons being scarce, flat tires, oil leaks, break downs,doors seats on buses, heavy grocery sacks will do. I am fortunate in that I have a husband who likes “taking care” of me ( Flame On!) I also live in an area where most young men are still taught basic manners. Recently I had a flat tire at the grocery store, I was wearing a skirt and heels and not one, but four, gentlemen offered to help ( in case your wondering, I’m 36, slightly overweight and at my best I rate cute). The gentlemen ranged in age from 16 to about 70.
I have taught my sons that a womans rude response to an offer of assisstance is no excuse for them failing to make the offer.
I stop to lend assisstance to anyone on the side of the road, after all, I can at least call for police or a tow truck. For the persons who failed in basic human kindnes, lezler, I am truly sorry you had to encounter them, and I pity the Mom who raised such creeps.

64

well, that certainly explains why you didn’t hold that thread open for me while I was struggling with those damned penguin splits. :smiley:

(don’t feel badly - lots of folks here apparently have thought I was male. You must have missed the couple o’ times I cyber flashed my tits
(@)(@) )

back to the OP - I don’t even keep track of the gender of folks I to whom I offer help and/or get offers from. I help people when I can, ask for help when I need, thank all those who offer help. System works well for me so far.

65

Well, count me as another woman who will either lend assistance or accept help, regardless of the gender of the other person. If I see someone who needs a bus seat, I’ll get up. Pregnant women, elderly men, a person of either sex who was limping when they approached the bus stop… whatever. And if I need assistance, I’ll ask politely. If someone offers to hold a door, I’ll thank them.

Rather than bemoan the loss of chivalry (a one-way street), I’d rather see us all treat each other as individuals deserving of respect.

Now, about the gawking… that was pretty rude of them. I’d have asked them why. “What? Do I have something between my teeth?” or “Whadda you lookin’ at?” (I’m not known for subtlety.)

66

Try letting it go at the exact moment when they’re about a foot or two from it. If you time it right it will be partly closed and they’ll run headlong into it on the narrow side(less surface area to distribute the force over, more chance of a black eye!), the glancing blows off their side aren’t nearly as much fun. Or, if it’s a double door and you’re going out as they’re coming in, wait until they’re about halfway through then open your side. You’ll probably slam the door into them. Bonus points if it’s a small child.

In case anyone, the humor impaired perhaps, thinks I’m serious, this is a joke. I’m actually done these things accidentally IRL, but would never, ever do it intentionally. In every case I was either trying to hold the door and lost my grip or was trying to open the second door for two-way traffic and whacked someone coming in. Makes you feel like a real :wally

Steven

67

You got me Sauron, I’m TERRIBLE with money :slight_smile:

68

Well, that trashes my hypothetical situation, then.

69

I pretty much agree with the I’m-not-doing-this-because-you’re-a-woman,-but-because-it’s-just-a-civil-thing-to-do crowd.

However, there is another side to the coin.

Ladies, if I hold a door open for you, and …
a) you appreciate it, at least nod.

b) you don’t appreciate it, give me an “After you”.

But don’t walk through it like I owe it to you.
(I usually call out “You’re welcome” in a loud voice. This does nothing for anyone but me.)

When the elevator comes, don’t assume you’re entitled to push past me and get on first. Hell, at least give the people on board a chance to get out.

70

Where I work, men and women open the door for each other. For instance, if we are going out on a smoke break, or to get coffee, there are 4 doors we must go through. And the first person, regardless of sex, opens it and holds it. That pattern continues until we reach out destination. On the way back, the patern repeats itself. The only time it changes is if someone has their hands full, then they are exempt from the opening and holding of doors. It doesn’t matter the sex of the person, its manners.

In the town where I live, people hold doors open, they let others go first, again, not by sex, but by who ever was there first. My town has a ton of bikers, and it is not unusual to see some six foot five tattooed biker holding the door for a quiet old lady, or see the old lady doing the same thing for the biker. Its called being polite.

lezlers I honestly don’t know if I would have offered to help you. It depends on my mood that day. If I saw you struggling, I probably would have, because its the polite thing to do. But it has nothing to do with me being male and you being female. It has to do with your another person having car trouble.

71

What I fail to see is why the virtue of men being polite and helpful to women is elevated to a higher level than treating everyone politely.

Wouldn’t it be great if men were polite and helpful to women? Yeah, sure. But wouldn’t it also be great if men were polite and helpful to other men? And if women were polite and helpful to men and if women were polite and helpful to other women?

Does it suck when a man stands by and doesn’t help a woman when she is obviously having trouble? Hell, yeah. But, for the love of Mike, it sucks when any capable person fails to help anyone who needs it. It’s not fucking chivalry, it’s not being a fucking jackass.

Does it suck when a woman blows her top at a man for being chivalrous? Of course it does–that kind of behaviour is never appropriate. Does it suck when a woman bitches because she expects special treatment and doesn’t recieve it? Fuck yes. That’s inappropriate in this day and age as well.

I’m pleased when a man holds a door open for me. I’m also pleased when a woman opens a door for me. I’m extremely grateful when people help me out with packages–doesn’t matter if it’s a man or a woman, it’s another human being reaching out, making a connection, and making life a bit easier and both our days are a little bit brighter for it.

Why the hell does it all have to be about sex, with gallant fellows maintaining their belief in women’s equality while tripping over themeselves to justify the fact that they still feel like they have to give extra help to women? Women can go through childbirth and have lower incomes than men, so you should pull their chairs out for them? What the fuck? Men have shorter average lifespan and can get prostate cancer and involuntarily sprout woodies at inopportune moments, so maybe I should offer them my bus seat. :rolleyes:

I just don’t get it. Be nice to everyone you meet. Lend a hand wherever you can. Be accommodating of older folks, pregnant ladies, and people with broken ankles. Making it all about sex just cheapens an act of goodness, and turns what should be a unifying act into a dividing one.

Don’t help me because I’m a woman. Help me because I’m a fellow human being, and your kindness will give us both a feeling of warmth and fellowship–that’s something that everyone needs, man or woman.

72

You can just bet I’m gonna use that one the next time I’m in mass-transit. “Pardon me, ma’am, could I have your seat? I seem to have an erection.”

73

You’re likely to get more than a bus seat. :wink:

74

Really?

So, Podkayne … How you doin’?

75

Similar to what blur said, I’ve got three doors between here and the cafeteria and we, typically 3 men and 2 women, take turns opening the doors on our way through and back.

When I’m out and about, if I’m going through a door and someone is within a couple of steps of it, I’ll hold it open for them. The key there being “hold it open” as opposed to “open it specifically for them.” When on a date or even just out with female friends, I’ll usually open their car door first and I almost unconsciously make an effort to walk curb-side of them (something about offering a barrier between the traffic and them or something, I suppose.) It’s just one of those things. The car door makes sense, though, because, well, I have the keys, you know.

Stilleto, you brought up the fact that women can carry a child, can be pregnant and that this should make them superior to men. The problem with this is that, IMO, it make the whole act of kindness or “chivalry” about sex, as opposed to benevolence. It turns it from holding a door because I happened to be there at the time to holding a door because you are able to have a child. That makes it about sex and if that is the case, them the feminazis or womyn or whatever are then right to get pissed off if the man is only doing things because he hopes for a bit of action because of it. I’m not saying you fall into one of those groups, rather that it seems to me that the statement you made is representative of their camp (in my limited understanding of them.)

As for helping people (or two young women in distress) change a tire, **WeirdDave, ExTank and I **are guilty of that, I suppose (at Spiffled II on our way to a gun range, no less.) In this case, their spare was flat, so even had they known how to change a shredded tire, they were SOL (and they didn’t know how, BTW.)

[Say Anything, Diane Court]
I just want someone to be decent.
Can’t you just be a little decent?
[/SA, DC]

76

I have always done the same thing. If the car is locked I will unlock the passenger door first, then walk around to the driver’s door. If the car is unlocked however it always felt wierd walking over just to open the door so I never did it.
Now however I get all screwed up since I bought a car with a remote entry system. Out of habit I walk over to the passenger door and … push the little button that I obviously could have pushed upto 100 ft away from the car. So now I’m stuck either opening the door for them, which as I mentioned feels wierd since there was no need for me to unlock it from that side, or I can walk back to my side feeling even wierder for having made a big presentation out of walking unnessesarily to that side solely to push a button then walking back around.

77

Okay. I guess I need to clarify a few of my statements here. thinksnow I did, indeed, make a reference about this, but what I intended to impart was that they were due additional consideration for this…not that I was doing it “hoping for a bit of action”. Captain Amazing’s observation that

I personally don’t agree with at all. (So I’ll just stick this in here: Hey, Captain Amazing…CITE?)
In the studies I have made of chivalry and the Art of Courtly Love the rules of courtly love are almost precisely the opposite. For example:

So I fail to see how ‘chivalric’ or ‘courtly’ behavior can be construed as a good way to bed the lady that you’re holding the door open for.

As for the rest of the subject, I, too, tend to hold doors open for pretty much everybody, or help someone that seems to need it, as a matter of politeness. As for directing a greater consideration to women, I guess the best way that I can find to put it is this: I try to give women a greater degree of consideration, not because I think they need it, due to any kind of inferiority, but because I think they deserve it, both because of the reason I gave earlier, and to perhaps in some way counteract the discrimination that they receive in so many other ways from other men. I’ve thought about and talked about this subject quite a bit, and I have never been able to discern within myself and bit of discriminatory feeling toward women. If a woman wants to work on an oil derrick, or as a construction worker, or as the CEO of a major corporation, more power to her. I know perfectly well that they are capable of doing so. But if my viewpoints here make some people see me as a sexist nonetheless, then so be it. There’s nothing else I can do about it, and very little else to explain.

-Stil

78

IMHO, this is just another well-intentioned form of discrimination. It fosters resentment between the sexes for one to be treated preferentially. Men are owed exactly the same level of respect, politeness, and consideration as women. I am appalled at the notion that a man who was having the same sort of difficulty as I would not be offered help as promptly as I might, simply because I am a woman–particularly if that fact causes resentment among men toward women, as I think it would inevitably would, especially considering the way some women complain when they don’t recieve special treatment.

I find the idea that I’m entitled to these favors because I as a woman I am capable of childbirth just repellent. Yuck. You hold the door for me because I have a uterus? There are a number of reasons why I’d like to think that I’m worthy of respect; biology is not high on the list. While I can imagine that I would appreciate a little extra help while in a gravid state (and I was happy to fetch and carry and help out my pregnant friend when I visited her) I can assure you that at the present moment, I am not pregnant, and I do not plan to become so (Sauron’s overatures notwithstanding), so there is no need for you to render extra assistance.

And if you want to redress the discrimination faced by women, well, guess what, big fella, fixin’ a flat tire or holdin’ the door ain’t gonna do it. You could fix a million flat tires and pull out a million chairs, and give up a million bus seats, and women will still be paid less for the same work, no more than 10% of physicists and astornomers will be women, and the fact will remain that an even lower percentage than that will be in tenured faculty positions in will be filled by women. I won’t think, “Golly, I’m having a terrible time finding a job with competitive pay, but at least this nice gentleman helped me carry those heavy boxes.” No way, no how.

Do me a favor: don’t do me any favor that you would hesitate to do for a man.

You can improve our situation by treating us with equality, not by magnanimously doling out special treatment.

(I would like to clearly state that I would never turn down help from a kindly gentleman when I needed it, that I would never make a scene, that I would never accuse him of sexism, or try to make him feel bad for his generosity. I would assume that his intentions were not motivated by my gender–and I urge you not to let yours be.)

79

You seem determined to make me change all my “chivalric” lines. Now I’m gonna have to use that one, as well. “Are you holding the door open for me because I’m a lady?” “No, I’m holding the door open because you have a uterus.”

Granted, and good points, all. But can we not think globally and act locally? I may not have the power to help female professors get tenured (actually, even if I had the power, I wouldn’t try; I’d tenure those that deserved it, regardless of gender), or solve any of the other problems you mentioned. But if I can make the day just a tiny bit easier for a lady, I will gladly do so. Just as I would gladly do so for a gentleman, as well.

I guess it all boils down to an issue of respect. I’ll show respect to any and all, and determine later whether they were due such respect. Anyone, male or female, who would not respond with a simple “thank you” or “no, thank you” for a held door or offered assistance isn’t due such respect. And anyone who would attempt to belittle such harmless niceties is beneath contempt.

80

Yes, the walking through a door that someone has held open for you (especially when it’s obvious they’ve gone out of their way) without so much as a glance, much less a “thank you” drives me nuts. I’ve become accustomed to yelling “you’re WELCOME!” to these ill-mannered jerks. Rude people suck. And does the fact that I like having doors opened for me, bags carried, ect. by gentlemen make me a bad person? Some of you are making it out to seem like it’s a crime to enjoy being “treated like a lady” it’s old fashioned, yes, I won’t argue with that, but there are a lot of things that are out of date that are still oh so good…

I agree that a door opened or a box carried doesn’t make up for earning less in the workplace, but hey, you can at least enjoy some of the things that DO come with being a woman. Like anything in life, being a woman has good parts and bad parts. As far as everyone that is going on and on about how acts of chilvary “divide the sexes” and yadda yadda…the sexes are already divided. They can’t be any more divided. We’re different. Deal with it. Enjoy the differences, relish in them.

Being a woman has benefits as well as drawbacks. So does being a man. So if I have to earn less in the workplace and I have to go through the agony of childbirth then goddammit, I’m gonna enjoy those doors being opened for me. So what if it’s because I’m a woman? I’m proud to be a woman.