Ouch cornflakes, did you have to put it so perfectly? Trust me, if assholes had wings, this place would be an airport. I’ve been in Silicon Valley for twenty years and it just gets worse.
These fucked up women fuck it up for the majority of women who are awesome.
“I resent that you are holding the door open for me. I resent it because I am a woman.”
How idiotic is that?
I know, I know, you’re going to scream at the top of your lungs, and yes I read the whole thread, and yep, you’re still an idiot.
It’s almost sad, because you seem to be struggling to simply say “I want to live in a world where men and women are treated equally, and there is no sex-discrimination, and I am willing to work towards it. There are jobs and occupations that certain individuals, regardless of gender, are unfit to perform. These individuals should not be allowed to fill these positions.
In this ideal world, if someone whined that they didn’t get the job because of their gender, the answer would be ‘No, you didn’t get it because you didn’t pass the eligibility requirements.’ and that would be that.
Hopefully, we can eventually create a world where we are all held to the same standards, and have to excel to the best of our abilities, instead of ending up in the world of Harrison Bergeron.”
This seems like what you’re trying to say, but you’re getting fucked around and caught up in some feelings you seem to be having about the entire issue.
Think about it.
Maybe it’s not the men, maybe it’s you. Maybe you need to re-align your thinking.
Of course, that’s my just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Well, voguevixen, rest assured that if I ever have the opportunity to hold a door open for you I will take great pleasure in slamming it in your ungrateful face instead. Great, immense pleasure. In fact, can we set up a meeting of some sort?
Yeah, assuming that someone might appreciate it if you were nice to them, that’s offensive.
And imagine how unpleasant the world would be if some complete assholes started giving assistance to others. People might just get a few more things done, their workload might get just that bit easier to bear, their stress levels may decrease, they might get more out of life. Shit, they might just be happier. And then they, in turn, would be nicer to others. People might start respecting each other more. Being alive might get just that little bit easier for everybody. That would just suck, wouldn’t it? :rolleyes:
Ironically, it was the Friday traffic report that included a warning of fistfights at the airport that helped me make the decision. It was a pretty strange moment. I got the impression that Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness was being lived out somewhere nearby.
I met a lot of good people there. What struck me as impersonal was how people acted in passing, not how anyone was face to face.
You know, in addition to it just being an innocuous sign of common courtesy, there’s also the whole “mother making me pay her money if I didn’t remember to hold the damn door open” thing. But hey, that’s just me (besides, the point does arise that I * like * opening the door…something about slamming into the thing with the entire mass of my 6’3" frame behind my shoulder…well, I guess that’s another issue :)).
Oxford- “militant”:…aggressively active, esp in support of a (usu. political) cause". Note the word “aggressive”, as in “the act of attacking without provocation”, ie, describes you to a turn.
You started the thread with:
‘For example, it bugs me when guys open doors for me. They aren’t THAT heavy, and I can do it myself. I want to be treated EQUALLY, not worse OR better.’
This doesn’t discriminate between politeness and what you consider ‘sexual harassment’.
The first post sets the tone of the thread, so you should have been more careful about your phrasing.
Sauron made an excellent point:
‘I don’t hold a door open for you because you’re a lady. I hold a door open for you because I’m a gentleman.’
By now you should have realised that many of us consider this ‘door thing’ a matter of good manners. At my School, we train the pupils to hold doors open for adults. This is a matter of respect, and has nothing to do with gender.
Every time a pupil does it, I smile and thank them.
Hopefully this will benefit them in the future (unless they run into voguevixen :rolleyes: )
Later you posted:
‘…screams at the top of my lungs
Do you people not read all the posts before replying or something???’
This would be more impressive if you showed more signs of responding to others yourself. When you said
‘…Plus, I have seen men walk around table to pull out the chair of their date, or walk around to open the car door’;
Jester replied
‘What the hell do you mean? When I’m on a date (heaven forbid), and I pull out a chair for her, or open a door, or run around a car to get the door for her, do you know why I’m doing it?
I’m not doing it because I’m excercising some superiority complex cause I’m a man. I’m not doing it to look down on my date.
Do you know why I’m doing it? I’m doing it because I’m On a friggin’ DATE!’
Instead of acknowledging this (and other points), you’ve ignored them.
Spider posted
‘Some changes take time, as evidenced by the resistance to the Equal Rights Amendment, and other societal practices that are slow to die. But I think we gain more headway by modelling the type of woman we wish others to see us as, and I don’t think we gain anything by refusing to let someone hold a door for us, or by not holding it for someone else. Best to pick more important battles…’
This is what’s important. I’m certain that the vast majority of posters here are for Equal Rights over pay etc.
You posted
‘My ideal would be that the regulations are set where they need to be for a firefighter to be able to do a good job. If women can make it, great. If they can’t, oh well. My point is that the gender shouldn’t be taken into consideration.’
Fine by me. I don’t expect that short (I’m sorry - vertically challenged) people should have legal rights to play in the NBA, or that obese people become jockeys. However if you insist that every area of life should be absolutely equal - then why do we allow women athletes to get prize money in their own totally sex-discriminated events? Would you protest about that?
To sum up: it’s interesting how suspicious some people are of politeness, but, of course, if you hold a door for me, I’ll say thank you and go right ahead.
And you’ll **NEVER[/b} know if I did it because
A)You’re a lady and that’s what gentlemen do for ladies.
B)I’m a nice guy who holds doors open for everyone.
or
C)I’m doing it just to piss you off.
Fenris
LaurAnge, so a complete stranger’s politeness is assumed by you to be rooted in antiquated sexism, but yelling at your friends is considered respect? Come on!
Look, if you want to complain about honest-to-god sexual harrassment at all levels, by and towards both genders, I’m there. If you want to demand equal pay for equal work, sign me up. Equal treatment under the law? I’m all for it.
But opening doors, for heaven’s sake? So a man scurries ahead to open a door for you? Big deal. He’s not pinching your ass, or wolf-whistling–he’s doing something polite and respectful, treating you with deference and honor. Worse things could happen to you.
voguevixen: You, more than anyone, make me hopeful that karma does indeed exist. Anyone who would deliberately go out of her way to return kindness with violence, I can only hope receives her just reward. But, in the interest of equality, if you ever kick me in the 'nads, I will break your nose for you. Fair?
Anyone - male or female - who doesn’t open the door for another person is an asshole, unless the other person is there first.
I’ve rarely had a woman hold a door open for me. Men yes, almost universally. (I’m male.) Women no. This is a rather disturbing fact, frankly.
Men don’t need to stop holding doors, women need to start.
**[/QUOTE]
Man, that is so true. I hold doors for the next person coming through, regardless of their sex. Almost all of them say ‘Thank You’. If one of these people kicks me in the nads for it, I will sue,voguevixen!
Many times men have held the door for me. It’s the polite thing to do, and it’s a nice gesture. It disrespects no one.
I say “Thank You” and move on, without questioning their motives.
LaurAnge, you asked earlier in the thread exactly how your attitude hurts other feminists?
Here’s a clue for ya.
Women who take a “fuck you” attitude toward simple courtesy prompt men to adopt a “women are fucking shrews” attitude. I frequently get the door held for me, and I do the same. Often, especially when it’s an older gentleman, it is likely happening because I’m a woman. (IE, rushing ahead to grab the door before I get there). When this occurs, I say “Thank you, Sir” and walk in. Why? Because woman have enough image problems without inviting more by carrying on over a simple act like door holding.
If a man held the door, then I caught him staring at my ass, that would be different and a confrontation would ensue. If a man held the door and said “I just wanted to get that big door for you, little girl”, a confrontation would ensue.
My main point here is this: Pick your battles. Worry and fight about equal pay. Worry and fight about equal health care access and education. Bitching about door opening doesn’t make you militant, it makes you appear irrational. Rational people (women, elderly and handicapped people) do not get angry over something like holding a door. If they do, I think they have much deeper issues that need to be addressed.
Remember, you DO NOT KNOW why someone opens a door for you. A man who rushes ahead to grab the door (and, for what it’s worth, I do know EXACTLY what you mean) may very well do that for everyone. Learn to give the benefit of the doubt unless shown otherwise. It isn’t an easy skill to learn, but it’s really worth it.
Never attribute to malice acts which may be meant in kindness.
You know, LaurAnge, this pissy attitude you display towards others - NO - NOT only men, but women too - has done nothing but set any attempts at gaining equality for women back about a century.
Thanks, dear, for reinforcing all the negative stereotypes women have had to try to negate for the last oh, what, 100 years?
Are you so wrapped up in yourself and your “cause” that you have forgotten that we ARE all equal - we’re all human beings? And you’re so “superior” that slamming a simple act of courtesy, whether it be “male based” or “female based” has become an idiotic attempt on your part to hopefully create a less civilized, less caring, and frankly, more RUDE society? One in which we can all walk around muttering “fuck you very much” under our breath while hating everyone we see. Sounds fantastic.
It seems to me that little - ok let’s call em “random acts of kindness” on the part of a LOT of people would make this place a NICER world to live in, wouldn’t it.
Well, muttering under my breath, fuck you very much.
And, am I the ONLY person in the world who really thought VogueVixen was being sarcastic or am I just an idiot? Probably, I’m an idiot…
glee, you absolutely, positively kick ass. Thanks for the reiteration.
And LaurAnge, you said that the door opening was just ONE example of outdated, sexist forms of chivalry? Okay, I can go with that. But, see, up till now, you haven’t presented ANY other examples for us to react to. Therefore, since there you had no other points, expect all the posts to follow to be about the one that you presented.
if you want us to stop proving you wrong about the door opening, then offer up another example, and I’m sure that everyone here will be happy to prove THAT wrong.
Well, fine, I’ll admit to you all that maybe I picked a bad example of my point. Equal pay scales and things like that are also very much what I meant. I used the door-holding as an example of something that everyone here can relate to.
In my opinion, the women that have been detrimental to our cause are the ones that begin to believe that women are BETTER than men and should have more rights (Yes, I have met those kinds of people, too). I believe that we should be treated equally.
Now, maybe the problem is that I can’t express myself properly, since so many of you have obviously missed my point. My point isn’t that no one should hold doors open for other people, or give up seats on the bus for people who look like they need it, or be polite in general. What I’m criticizing is the principle.
And, even if assuming that every man who has gone far out of his way to hold the door for me was just an especially nice person, I still have spoken to people who admit to doing it because the person they are holding the door open for is a woman. Does anyone disagree with me that this practice still happens, whether to me or not?
glee,
Fitst off, I used the doors as an example. I didn’t talk at length about it because that wasn’t the focus of my post.
That’s wonderful. If more people were polite like that, the world would be a better place. But that isn’t my point!!!
About the date, shrugs If that’s the way his date wants to be treated… And I bet he pays for her meal and for the movie and picks her up, too. If that’s what makes HER feel special, I can’t say anything about it. But my boyfriend and I alternate paying for movies and all the rest, and that makes ME happy. I can’t help thinking that it shouldn’t be expected that the man pay for everything. Women now work and can pay our own way, why should we be leaving the burden on you?
Yes, this IS important. But the more subtle things, that we encounter every day and are common in our society are also important. To me, anyway.
In my mind, competetion is about aclssing the group of people who have similar physical attributes together to start on a semi-even playing field. For example, there are weight categories in wrestling. It makes sense to me, but I can see your point as well.
Zette, you said:
In my opinion, if we get all these wonderful things, women would be equal before the law, and in business. But society is something else we need to change. People should not only be equal before the law, they should be treated equally. For example (and no, before you people yell at me, I’m not comparing chivalry to racism, just trying to show my point) once the laws were set up to stop racism, it still happens in SOCIETY, and is still something that needs to be worked on. Maybe I’m not expressing myself well enough, but, get my point?
So basically, you stopped by to talk about equal rights and equal protection under the law–valid topics–and in a fit of complete loss of judgement complained about men holding doors instead?
You used door holding as an example and got blasted. I had something happen a while ago that pissed me off that was DIRECTLY gender related (based on the person it occured with and the circumstance)
A girl I worked with left her car lights on and drained her battery. I was jumping her car with my truck when a guy who worked in the manufacturing area came out and was watching us. I got it all hooked up and we were in the process of starting her car. This jackass walks up, takes a look at the hookups and says in a genuinely shocked tone “Well, I’ll be. You know how to jump a car? I figured you girls were out here waiting for me to come over and help ya’ out! Snort, Snicker, Scratch”
To which I answered “Yep- we can read instructions. Someday I hope to be able to vote and leave the kitchen”.
This guy was coming to help a couple of “distressed females”. Is there something wrong with that? NO THERE IS NOT. What IS wrong is the blatent assumption that we did not know how to solve our problem without a mans help. He absolutely could not believe we knew how to jump a vehicle, and went around work telling this story like he’d seen aliens in the parking lot. He was UTTERLY STUNNED that you didn’t need a penis to hook up jumper cables.
Is that more along the lines of what you’re talking about? I can also see your point about pulling out chairs and paying for dates. If that is not your bag, no problem. People don’t do those things to “put down” each other or insult them. They do them because they care about the person and those are ways of expressing it. As long as some women enjoy that treatment, it will continue. You sound like you think these are the building blocks of opression, which I disagree with. Thinks like talking Barbie saying “Math is hard!” (in my opinion) are.
