Dating Advice (Wow, this got long. Sorry!)

In My Humble Opinion
21

Yeah, that does sound better. My point still stands though.

Well, I totally flubbed that sentence. Rather than gambling, I meant ‘Kino’ which I thought referred to the palm game itself but actually just means light physical touching, according to the in the pickup-artist community. Here’s an excerpt from a newsletter I read:

[talking about strategic use of disinterest]

"Let’s illustrate this with our next move, the
Kino Test:

As Mystery is talking to a girl, he will hold out
his hands, palms up. He continues talking - the
conversational topic itself is unrelated. The
understanding is clear on his face that she is
supposed to comply and put her hands into his.

Does she give him her hands? This is a compliance
test. If she puts her hands into his, then she has
complied. (This will almost always happen, if
delivered right.) Next, as he continues talking
about something unrelated, he squeezes her hands a
little bit. He is testing to see if she squeezes
back.

Mystery then pushes her left hand forward and
pulls her right hand back, and then he pushes her
right hand forward and pulls her left hand back.
He reverses again, back and forth a few times as
he continues talking to her, just testing to see
how eager she is to follow along, or if there is
any resistance in her touch.

Mystery then slowly lowers his hands as he
continues talking. He is testing to see if she
will follow.

Then he gives her hands a dismissive toss, while
their conversation itself continues unabated.

If, at any time during the routine he had detected
resistance from her, he would have immediately
pre-empted her with the dismissive toss of her
hands, thus ending the kino test with a physical
signal of disinterest.

>>> “Wait a sec,” you might ask. “If she resists,
then I toss her hands away. That makes sense. But
you’re saying that if she complies, I also end the
gambit by tossing her hands away? So I am supposed
to show disinterest either way?”

That’s right! You’re supposed to show disinterest
either way! The disinterest is what keeps things
comfortable and fun between the two of you,
allowing you to keep making more and more moves!

Remember, you make a move, and then you push her
away again. Do this over and over again; it should
be a part of the vibe between the two of you. In
fact, this should also be a part of the way you
talk to her. This playful sort of escalation is
what turns a woman on. It helps her to feel
excitement instead of always feeling like you are
pushing her for too much."

I haven’t tried it, but I think it’s interesting enough to try out. It does sound like high-school flirting, but I think thats part of the point. It’s supposed to be playful, light, and innocent. I dunno; I am far from a representative of the PUA community. tdn or JoeSki would be able to answer any questions better than me.

22

That’s the sort of thing that, were it to happen “spontaneously”, it would totally work on me, but seeing it all written out as manipulation instructions makes me want to hurt people.

23

Jesus Christ that reads so fucking creepy it’s not even funny. “The understanding is that she is supposed to comply”. Ugh.

24

[Underlining mine]

My advice is not to leave the ball in her court. It’s risky; if she doesn’t reply, you’re writing long OPs on the dope asking for advice :smack::smiley:

I do the same thing all the time; I must stop that practice until there’s more of a foundation established.

I wouldn’t abandon hope yet. If nothing else, we’ve entered the Bermuda Quadrangle of loneliness (Thanksgiving-Christmas-New Year-Valentines Day). Lotsa ppl re-evaluate their lives, including “Why am I still alone?”

If you decide to do break the silence, I’d be uber casual. I wouldn’t mention the movie. Maybe text her something that reminds her of a good moment you had but NOT bringing up the movie. Google a “Top 100 of the 80s” list and remark that you couldn’t believe the song that got #1. Just a sort of “Hey, I’m still here” message may prod her into action.

25

Don’t contact again. I think you know that. No questions, no casual messages, no hunting for another date. I’d say you’ve over-communicated as it is.

My read on the situation is she she had some initial interest but wasn’t sure which way it was going to swing. The second date was her feeling it out further. She’s decided that though she may be slightly into you, it’s not enough for her to take action right now. Her early exit and non-committal attitude bears that out.

If she contacts again don’t accept the first invitation (say you’re busy then offer a couple alternatives), unless it’s something spectacular she’s bringing you; assuming you do want to even meet her again.

26

Sounds like a Mystery Method term. I don’t know the specifics of the “Kino palm game” but it’s probably some variation of “let me see your hand” and then applying what appears to be an innocent game that ends with the two of you facing off in a subtly intimate configuration (ie staring into each others eyes an inch from her face).

“Kino” is a term Mystery uses in his VH1 Pickup Artist show to describe those little touches that people give each other to express interest. For example, her touching your arm or chest or you leaning in with your hand on the small of her back and whispering something into her ear under the guise that it’s too loud to talk where you are.

Arm-punching is out. You’re not her kid brother.
My advice from personal experience is get to first base by the first date and before the end of the evening. It establishes the relationship as romantic right off the bat. Think of it from her side. She isn’t evaluating your performance throughout the evening and then deciding to reward you with a kiss at the end of the night. She is waiting for that shared magical moment when it just “feels” right. I’ve generally struck out more often by waiting too long than by trying too soon.

One thing that Mystery talks about in his show a lot and what I can verify from experience is the concept of changing locations. It creates a perception of a much richer and more interesting dating experience. For example:

Location 1 - Meet at the restaurant bar a few minutes early and have a drink while you are waiting for your table. This gives you some time to talk and do a little light “keno” touching crap to build a connection

Location 2 - Sit down to eat. This is the “formal” part of the date. The problem with dinner dates is that you sit accross from each other and it becomes sort of “job interview”-like. That’s fine for now.

Location 3 - That cute little jazz lounge down the street. Similar idea to Location 1. A quiet place where you can get a little closer and more intimate.

Location 4 - Something nice and romantic. Like a walk around Rockefeller Center to check out the Xmas tree or some shit. Note that Locations 3 and 4 are interchangeable here, depending on geography. Avoid places that are too dark or desolate as that gives off a creepy vibe. We’re going for crowded but anonymous here.

Location 5 - The ride home. Obviously this doesn’t work if you have to put her in a cab. If she asks you to share the cab, however, that is a keen indicator of interest.
Your goal, starting after Location 2, is to build up a rapport and increase your general intimacy until you feel it’s a good time to lay on some lip action. A good indicator is if you are sitting next to each other in a lounge, there is an awkward silence when you run out of stuff to babel aboutand she is looking around slightly anxiously. That generally means she’s thinking “when will this idiot shut up and kiss me?” Or in other words, if you are having an “OMG should I kiss her?” moment, the answer is generally YES! NOW DUMBASS!!.
WhyNot, I don’t really look at it as “manipulation”. I mean it’s not Jedi mind shit and none of it will force an attraction if there’s nothing there. Really most of it is just logistics and recognizing body language.

27

That’s why, were it to happen IRL, I’d fall for it. Either I’d be interested, in which case OMG, he’s touching my hands and now he’s…what’s he doing? Oh, oh, well…that was…interesting…rats, now I want to hold his hand! Or I’m not, in which case I tense up and he drops my hand and the interview is over.

It’s the fact that someone (some many) have so thoroughly thought about and articulated what should* be something that comes of a natural rapport, and is then teaching it to people who don’t have this natural skill that’s creepy. It’s fucking with natural selection. If I’m interested in sensitive men who intuitively understand my body language, I don’t want one who’s taken a weekend workshop in it, I want one who’s a natural, who can pass that sensitivity on to our beautiful crotchspawn through his superior genes and his obvious superiority and sensitivity as a co-parent. That’s the part that’s manipulative - not that he’s testing my physical relaxation with a little hand to hand contact, but that he had to memorize the steps and study the process for what presumably indicates greater reproductive fitness.

It’s manipulation because, unless this Mystery’s Method extends beyond getting laid to creating a functional long term relationship, it’s misrepresenting the goods.

*Yes, I do have “shoulds”, even though I hate the word. :wink:

28

I think all I have to add here in the way of advice is to stop texting while driving. killing some one on your way home from a date is a pretty big turn off with the ladies.

29

At the risk of starting a hijack, that doesn’t sound quite fair. What’s the problem with somebody basically learning how to be suave and charismatic. Why should only people with naturally-born talent benefit from such skills? Of course, perhaps it’s not meant to be fair. I also don’t necessarily see how being a Don Juan / player (take your pick depending on how you view the game), correlates to greater reproductive fitness. I know that’s the way many women are wired, but I don’t get how it would be true. Boy, maybe this should go into another thread?

Of this I am not sure. I’m still not convinced the whole thing isn’t just a scam, so I haven’t gotten more involved other than signing up for the free newsletter.

30

I say just call her. She already said that she wants to see the movie, a follow-up call is a perfectly reasonable next step on your part. Yes, it’s entirely possible that she has suddenly lost interest through no fault of your own, but there is also enough reason to think that she is either (a) busy, (b) waiting for you to call, or © not sure what she feels about you yet, making this a really good time to pick up the phone. If she declines or doesn’t return the call? Well, it was a drama-free couple of dates, just wave and smile next time you see her around. Same result as if you don’t call.

31

Sure!

32

Busted! :smack: Really I got the text while I was driving home. I did not respond until I got home. Based upon relative distance from date location to my home and her home - she texted me while she was driving! :smiley:

33

Well thank you everyone for the advice and opinions. It does seem there are two camps here - call her and don’t call her with the “call her” side having the numerical advantage. My problem is I think both sides have very valid points so…

<puts on grown-up pants>

I’ll call her tomorrow evening and pretty much borrow KneadToKnow’s script of: “Hey, I know our movie plan for Sunday fell through, but I’d like to give it another try. Are you free Thursday [or whatever] night?”

<removes grown-up pants>

I’ll let you all know what happens.

MeanJoe

34

in my experience, wearing no pants gets the best results . . .

Good luck tomorrow!

35

Then I shall call her without pants on!

Do I mention that when talking to her? (Kidding)

36

Well, y’know, it might kick the physical part up a notch :stuck_out_tongue:

37

BAM!

38

So didja call yet? didja? didja?

39

Yes, I called her tonight around 7PM (EST) and got her voicemail. Left a message, pretty much following KneadToKnow’s suggestion. No return call and to be honest… intuition is telling me I won’t get a response.

MeanJoe

40

But at least you know you did what you could. Good for you, MeanJoe.