Dating tips for the clueless

In My Humble Opinion
81

I definitely am carrying baggage from the broken engagement. It was pretty horrendous and relatively recent. I did feel like I was making a lot of calls for every one made to me, and it started to really get to me. I realized then that when someone can’t make the time to call you, they probably just don’t want to talk to you that much. I am pretty tired of being the one who makes it all happen. I think it’s bad to set that as a precedent right from the beginning, because it makes you seem vulnerable and needy.

The only “irrevocable” decision I’ve made is that I’m not calling him anymore. It’s his turn to call me. If he doesn’t, then we can just fade out at this point. If he does, we’ll talk and it’ll probably be fine.

I called him last Wednesday. He called me back Thursday and came over Friday. On Friday, he said he’d call me Tuesday, but he didn’t and I called him. He didn’t call me back, which means he’ll probably call tonight. If he doesn’t, I really don’t think I should call AGAIN.

Yeah, I’m not going to leave strident messages. I’m not going to leave any more messages at all, in fact.

I’d like to do it in person, not on the phone, though. I think the phone is an instrument of the Devil.

82

Okay, I’ll speak as someone who also has a horrific broken engagement in her past. And, like you, I also have a LOT of pride about calling/being chased/not acting needy etc. and my tendencies grew more pronounced after my engagement broke up (btw, because we were from diff parts of India and this was intolerable to his parents).

I realise that you do not want to feel or make yourself extremely vulnerable right now and that’s perfectly okay. But at the same time you don’t want to cloud every man’s aura with what your ex may have done to you. Honestly, guys run the gamut. Some people are just genuinely last minute and thoughtless about plans and it has NOTHING to do with whether or not they are interested in you or do not want to make you a priority in their life.

I personally feel that you have done nothing psycho potential girlfriend qu’est que c’est as of yet. But you know what would be crazy? Not answering his call in a sulk if he does call. Or telling him off. Because that’s the point at which you have a beacon over your head screaming “ex issues!” Don’t go out with him if it’s inconvenient but when he calls just give him a head’s up that you’re a pre-planner type of chick and leave the ex out of it! “Hey man, I need a quicker turn around time because I’m a busy person” = not crazy. “FUCK YOU YOU THOUGHTLESS SHITHEAD GOD ALL MEN SUCK” = crazy ho.

And anyway, if this guy is way too much effort to figure out, maybe it’s not worth it. Personally, I am none too fond of men that require vast amounts of mental effort due to constant pussy-footing and mixed signals. Those are brain cells that must be wasted on shopping at Aldo and Benetton.

83

Marry me. :cool:

  • Sorry for the hijack.

Ditto on what people have said so far. A day ago you were worried about how to kiss this guy and now you are stressing that he didn’t call when he said he would.

Can I be frank?

My guess, the guy just isn’t that into you at this point.

That can change if you perhaps show him a clear sign that you like him or it may not.

Either way, you called. Leave it alone. Leave the decision to go/not go to the movie until he actually calls. See how you feel then. My guess, no matter how disappointed you are this minute, you’ll jump at the chance. Why? Cuz you like him. If he calls and cancels last minute, you’re suspicions will be proven in that he’s not that into you. Unless he immediately suggests to reschedule.

Anyway, it’s simple: He calls, you go. He cancels, you move on. He reschedules, you give him one more chance.

84

See, this is why women end up going out with a “bad boy” (who on the first date is ripping your blouse off at the start and end is giving you a STD) instead of a “nice guy”- then screaming “GOD ALL MEN SUCK!!”*. Maybe this dude is aware of our OPs issues and is (imagine this) “being a thoughtful gentleman”. :eek:

  • Note to the female sex. Men do not always “suck”. However, “bad boys” do suck.
85

Being clear about your intentions or signalling your interest in a non-ambiguous has nothing to do with being a bad or a good boy or whatnot. I don’t date bad boys. For they are tiresome and oftentimes dull. My latest victim is working on his ph.d in physics. I defy you to find a bigger dork who ever dorked in dork town. And yet, it has been made eminently clear that he likes me. Because he calls, asks me out, asks me to call him, tells me I smell like heaven, and stammers whenever I sensuously apply watermelon lip gloss with my patented smolder-glare (as he talks about electrons or whatever the hell it is that he works on).

Pussy-footing is just pussy-footing. Has nothing to do with your personality.

86

That’s not my problem. I don’t want him to rip my shirt off. I want him to indicate some sort of interest in a clear and consistent way. Not calling does not help the situation.

He did call today while I was at work (and he knew I’d be at work) and left a message saying he was canceling for tonight because his friend was in town for one night only at the last minute and they were having some sort of party for him. He said he would call about the weekend.

I have no idea how to interpret this. Is it a blow off? Is it a legit excuse? I called back and left a message saying I was glad he canceled b/c I couldn’t make it anyway, being that the movie turned out to be at 10pm. I did mention that the weekend was possible and to call me tomorrow if he wanted to do something. Ball’s back in his court.

I never said men suck. Dating sucks. But I just broke up with a “bad boy” and they do indeed suck like a Hoover. I can’t tell if this guy is a bad boy or not. He hasn’t really shown me his true colors in any definitive way.

Maybe I’m going out on a limb here, but I think men who are still single in their 30’s are so for a reason. They have managed to avoid marriage thus far, probably because they have trouble committing. This kind of mixed signal behavior I’m getting right now is the hallmark of a man who is confused about what he wants and ambivalent about relationships. I’m sure part of him wants to settle down but another part wants to roam. I don’t want to have to convince him of anything. Sooner or later, he’s in or he’s out. We’ll see if we get together again or what.

As for me, and why I’m still single… I choose the wrong guys. I get attached too easily and then have trouble walking away. As a wise man said, “You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run.” If this chap doesn’t contact me in the next couple of days, I’m gonna fold 'em. Time and Rubystreak wait for no man.

87

I think he should cut and run from the sound of where your head is at lately. Baggage? I’d say so. Possessive and demanding with subterfuge at the least. I called him once now it’s his turn and it better be today and don’t go thinkin’ I’d just agree to a get-together at the last minute cuz I’ll turn it down even if I am free kinda mind games are just the thing most guys can live without. For someone you like and enjoy, this is sprouting strings like a marionette.
Chill out. Play out a little slack in the leash. You don’t want him feeling the chock-collar this early into it do ya?
I may not be him that is mishandling the relationship.

88

…and you’ve done what exactly to show the same level of interest?.. Not kiss him?

Rubystreak, I wish you well. Really I do. But you’ve got an entire drama playing out in your head that has nothing to do with him and everything to do with your expectations of him. Expectations which you never really expressed to him and which are frankly slightly premature.

Seems you are quick to excite and then just as quick to dampen the flames when things don’t proceed according to plan.

Breath. Relax. Act in the moment, not in your own head between scenes.

89

Sounds legit to me, but it’s hard to tell.

90

I disagree with this about 100% (except the part about mind games - neither partner should play them). Basic courtesy is basic courtesy, and if he said he’d call, he should call, or you have every right to be disappointed and tell him so. I mean, it’s not end of the world or anything, but people are on their best behaviour at the start of a relationship, and this is his best? I have no problem with you or anyone else telling someone your expectations of them. He has every right to tell you his expectations, too, so if you both know what the other is expecting, you both end up happy (or apart, to find someone else).

You mentioned that you think men still single over 30 are basically damaged goods - I also disagree with that. (I must be feeling particularly disagreeable today :smiley: ). I met my husband when he was 31, and he never played games withe me or backed away from making a commitment to me - he was single simply because he hadn’t met his match yet. If this guy’s acting all weird and inconsistent, I would say that is (unfortunately) because he isn’t that into you. When someone wants to be with someone else, they make it happen. And for the record, it sounds to me like this guy changed his mind part way along, resulting in your confusion. It sounds like he was interested, but then he lost interest, for whatever reason.

Next time you see him, I think it’s time to talk to the boy. Get it all out and make sure you’re on the same page.

91

Sorry - my second paragraph was referring to you, Rubystreak, not Nic.

92

Expecting someone to call when he says he’s going to is baggage? I don’t think so. I think my baggage lies in my urge to cut and run at the first sign of trouble, but honestly, I wouldn’t do that unless he stopped calling me and I had to do all the contacting.

I haven’t actually spoken to the man person to person since Friday. It’s been phone tag since then, so I’m not sure how I’m committing subterfuge. We had 3 dates with a 4th one planned. Then, he didn’t call, canceled at the last minute, etc, I’m just sitting here wondering how I’m supposed to act, hence this thread.

It funny how people jump into the second page of a thread and they turn out not to have read the entire thread. I called him Wednesday, he called back. I called him yesterday, he called when there was no way I’d be home and left a message, then I called back. This is not me calling once and saying, “That’s it.” I have initiated all the phone contact and that makes me feel uncomfortable. It had better be today because today is the day we had plans, so what could would calling tomorrow be? As for not going at the last minute, I didn’t realize this movie he wanted to see was at 10pm, so I wouldn’t have gone anyway. I have to be up at 6am.

If expecting people to call you when they say they will is a choke collar, then I have to wonder what you’d call common courtesy. I don’t think I’ve mishandled anything. I’ve consistently shown interest in him, while he has sort of reciprocated, I think it’s rude to cancel plans, as he did, mere hours before they were supposed to happen. HE canceled, not ME, if you read that part.

I don’t want to be panting after him as if I’m desperate. To me, calling multiple times would be demanding and pushy of me, not to mention presumptuous. When I see him next, I will make some effort to clear up some of this confusion, but there’s no way I’m doing it over the phone, and he doesn’t do e-mail. While we’re playing phone tag, all I can do is wonder and post to this thread.

Are you suggesting that I should call him tomorrow whether he calls me or not? My inner voice is telling me that would be a bad idea, that I should let him call or not call. Yet now I’m being scolded here for not wanting to be the one to call him again, and it’s being called subterfuge. Now I’m really confused.

93

At this point, I’d be satisfied with a phone call. I can’t kiss him unless I see him, and I haven’t even managed to get him live on the phone at all this week.

Does it really need to be made explicit that people should do what they say they will? Also, lest you think otherwise, I haven’t expressed any of this anxiety to him. He just got a message last night saying, “Did we have plans for tomorrow?” Then, phone tag, with him begging off and me saying, “It’s just as well, the movie was too late for me anyway.” I want to adjust my expectations according to what seems to be happening, because I was very disappointed in my last relationship, which I entered with great optimism and naivete, only to be crushed.

I was excited when I started this thread, but now I’m not so sure. I feel I should dampen my excitement because I don’t want to have expectations that are unrealistic, and I’m adjusting them based on new information.

Yeah, I need to chill out. Maybe I’m not ready to be dating again.

94

Yeah, I think that’s a limb you’re out on there. I think it’s your mood talking and not your common sense. Does the same apply to women? What if it turned out that the same thing happened to this guy that happened to you and now he’s also a little gunshy? There are many men with many circumstances in this world and it’s unfair to make a broad, sweeping generalization about them based on their marital status in their 30’s. You know that, just relax a little.

95

I guess what it comes down to is, I don’t understand why the rules of common courtesy don’t apply here. If I make plans with any friend and say I’m going to call, I call. It has nothing to do with romantic interest or anything. I try to be polite and considerate of other people’s time and planning. When someone does not follow these simple social courtesies, it makes me wonder about them.

This also seems to be a very common complaint among my single women friends. Guys say they are going to call, but they don’t, or it takes them days, and they expect plans to change on the fly, with no warning. This is not just coming from me; I’ve seen threads about it on the Dope, even.

When someone is lacking the basic consideration of word = deed, I think they have some issues with follow through, whether they are male or female. It does seem to be more common among single men, and I think it’s an avoidance tactic that is indicative of an overall lack of consideration and/or interest. I would say the same thing if a woman did that to a man.

96

I think this thread is threatening to get a little out of hand; I don’t think anyone is intending to be insulting or excessively critical, but there’s a sense that you’re not really willing to take some well-meaning advice. Let me try, for my own sake at least, to clarify the salient points.

You have every reason to be disappointed by the lack of a returned phone call; common courtesy does dictate responding to requests by friends and associates in a timely manner; however, what constitutes timely by one person is tardy by another. I personally forget to check my cell phone for a day or two unless I know I’m expecting a call. If you leave a message and don’t hear back, it doesn’t mean I’m blowing you off; just that I’m busy or distracted by something else.

I also tend to be obsessive about dates and times and getting everything properly communicated, but only because I’m naturally so bad at it; lacking the discipline I’ve developed in that regard I’d no doubt forget about any number of plans and arrangements. Some people are like this; I have a number of coworkers–all smart people–who have to be reminded about attending weekly meetings and somesuch. It’s not that they don’t care, just that they don’t remember.

With regard to baggage–and since I’m the one that first applied the term, I think I need to explain what I meant–you’re generating comparisons to your ex-fiance, making inferrences about the lack of communication, trying to figure out his motivations, and complaining about the lack of directness from him when you’re trying to be oblique yourself. This is generating a whole lot of meaningless noise out of which you are attempting to parse out this lad’s interest in you, when in fact, you lack any real data. You’re then getting worked up–no doubt exacerbated by your recent car incident–without giving fair consideration to all possibilities.

Whether you want to take offense at a lack of communication or the lack of followthrough on an unformed invitation (and one, from the sounds of it, that you’d have declined anyway) is your choice; you certainly have the right to be put out by a lack of response, and the apparent lack of forthright interest doesn’t make for great promise, but it’s a long way from outright rejection or game playing. If this is your standard–and it’s every bit your right to set it as high as you like–then I have to concur, if I can do so without sounding snarking, with your uncertainty regarding your preparedness for dating. I’m not being unsympathetic. I’ve been stood up on four of the last six attemtps at dating over the past three-something years, and from what I’ve come to understand this is not uncommon behavior (although I find it manifestly unacceptible, particularly when the stand-up isn’t followed by at least an even slightly-heartfelt if patently transparent excuse). But that’s the breaks; you have to accept them and move on…or do as I do, and stay home with a book and a glass of Irish whiskey most nights.

Anyway, I wish you good luck, if not with this situation than with another. Hang in there.

Stranger

97

The only consistent advice I’ve gotten is to chill out. I am as chill as I’m going to get. Would I like to have a frank conversation with this guy and clear some things up? Yes. But I have not being able to talk to him in person since Friday, and he doesn’t do e-mail, so what else can I do right now? Nothing.

I agree, but the fact is, he did cancel a date mere hours before it was to happen. That is tardy by anyone’s standards, I think.

I’d believe this was the case if our mutual friend didn’t mention that he heard this guy and I were going to the movies Wednesday night, from the guy in question, on Tuesday night. He just neglected to tell me about it, for some reason.

You’re right, I shouldn’t be assuming he doesn’t like me or isn’t interested based on his lack of phone usage. That isn’t even fair to say about my ex; he was just an inconsiderate person with no concept of time and no interest in obtaining said concept.

God, I’m not trying to be oblique! I have initiated pretty much everything that has gone on with this guy and I’m ready to discuss where this friendship is going, but I haven’t been able to talk to him. This is obliqueness of necessity, not connivance.

I’m not offended. I’m confused. I’d rather be offended, because it’s easier to know what to do.

I’m definitely unprepared, but the show must go on. I’m trying not to think about it for now and make other plans for the weekend.

98

Rubystreak, I agree with Stranger and did not want to come across as hostile in my post. I had read the thread from the beginning and I stand by my thoughts. When I use the term baggage I mean the fears, expectation and pre-concieved notions that everyone has and draws from in relationships. By this time in his life he must surely have some also.
I think he may be feeling a bit constricted or pressed and I am recommending a little breathing space. I tend to agree with the word=deed thing but I apply it with this vigor to important stuff (I’ll pick up up from the airport, I’ll give you a ride to the hospital, if you need me, call me and I’ll be there). I have many friends with whom I can say “I’ll call ya on Thursday” and if I forget or get busy, it is not earth-shaking. Shit happens and I’ll be glad to see ya next time we get together.
I only meant my post to be a :smack: to snap out of it and don’t ruin what has been a good thing up to this point.
I am not in the dating arena now but I did a lot in the not-so-distant past. If I met a nice woman and we were having a good time and then it started to get this pressed I would feel a little apprehensive.
I only say these things in hopes you will cool out a little and not hamper what may be a good thing. If you spook him, he will run.

99

Maybe he is, but do realize that you guys are seeing a lot of anxiety that has not been expressed to him. Remember, I haven’t spoken to him in a week. We saw each other last Friday, then I called him Tuesday and we exchanged messages yesterday. That’s it. We’ve been playing phone tag.

It’s not earth-shaking, but it does seem to indicate a lack of interest. I’m the kind of person who is willing to take the initiative, but if I do it too much then I worry I’m being pushy, so I’m trying to back off here and let him call me if he wants to.

Would snapping out of it mean to call him or not to call him? Another mutual friend of ours who works with me is in a band and he invited me to see them play Friday, and my gentleman friend too. Do I call and tell him this? Or do I let him call me, since I just called him yesterday? These are the etiquette questions I need help with. Which thing would be the right thing to do? I fear screwing things up because honestly, I don’t have much experience dating people I don’t know very well, or with dating in general, come to think of it.

100

I do realize but is it possible he picked up some vibs earlier?

<bolding mine>
That’s what I’m talking about.

Go to the show. Have fun. If you speak to him between now and then, simply mention that this is something you’re planning to do. If he asks to join you, fine. If he says to have a good time, fine. Anxiety is not appealing. Relax, have fun, let it flow.