This is not meant to be an insult, but wouldn’t another possible interpretation be that the women were simply being dishonest? Because girls are socialized differently than boys, isn’t it likely that women would be less likely than men to admit that they got turned on by watching a porno movie? In other words, maybe they were simply embarassed to admit it. To me it seems a better explanation since it does away with the problem of explaining how physical arousal and psychological arousal, which both occur in the brain, can be disconnected from one another.
I’d be willing to bet that a similar situation would occur if one showed homosexual erotica to a group of heterosexual men. I think a lot of men would be reluctant to admit any feelings of arousal, even if they experienced such feelings.
But the women can’t lie about blood flow and lubrication if they’re being studied, or if those things are being measured. They can say “Oh no, it’s awful I would never enjoy that” while there physiological response says the exact opposite.
I think that women can and do enjoy sex without having an orgasm is an important point. Maybe my experiences are just limited, but I have never met a guy who enjoyed having sex without an orgasm.
Women on the other hand, myself included, do enjoy sex without an orgasm. Maybe because ours are a little more complicated and less of a sure thing, in general. There have been times when it just honestly seemed like too much work to get there.
And I think women attach more emotion to it than men. As in, I had a bad day, I feel ugly, I feel unwanted, etc etc, can be “cured” by having sex. The same feelings could have been met with a long talk or just kissing. Again, in my experiences (which are mostly with guys in thier twenties, for examples sake) guys enjoy sex simply for having it and simply to have it.
A good discussion. I like how mature everyone is being about it. Though I loved Marley’s answer.
I have had two times when I could not orgasm for many days, both times when I had a bad cold. I enjoyed the hell out of sex during those times. I have known women who were all over sex, in a healthy way, and those who were JUST this side of frigid. There is probably a wider range, with fatter tails, of women’s sexual desire levels as compared to men’s levels. Physically, psychologically, or societally, I think men are hornier as a gender than women, and my wife agrees.
I more or less think this is the case, but I wouldn’t say it was neccesarily dishonest. I think there’s probably a disconnect. They think they’re giving an honest answer, but it’s just not an accurate one. If you personally define arousal as “what happens when you’re in bed with someone you love” then you can dismiss those twinges that don’t fit the definition, quite honestly, and never realize you’re doing it. Really, it seems to me that it’s really hard to accurately label feelings unless someone helps you. When you’re little, your mom says, “Oh, I know you’re very sad,” and eventually you know to label that as ‘sad.’ But mommy never says, “Oh, I know you’re very turned on.” And girls don’t have that clear-cut signal–“hey, whenever I feel this way, this part of me swells up! So that’s what that is!” So combine the difficulty of identifying the sensation with the socialization, and you get an honest response–just an inaccurate one. If that makes sense.
nyctea scandiaca, I agree that using sex as a weapon, to coerce, is messed up. At the same time, there might be another thing going on. If I’m angry at Mr. Cameron, it’s hard for me to enjoy sex. I don’t use sex as a reward–“Oh, honey, you’ve taken out the trash and mowed the lawn–but you didn’t change the oil in the car. No sex for you tonight!” It’s not a question of what he has to do, but a question of my not being easily turned on when I’m angry and stressed. On the other hand, when he does nice things for me, I feel loved and very positive about him. And on another level, when there’s a long list of things that need to be done and haven’t been, it can be another stress on me that keeps me from relaxing enough to really enjoy things. So Mr Cameron doing something like mowing the lawn or throwing in some laundry or anything else that helps remove some of that stress will help me get into things better. If that makes sense.
Actually, this is something I wouldn’t mind discussing.
I have, through the years, known two women who told me they’d never orgasmed…ever. One was mid twenties and the other late thirties.
One told me she was ‘non-orgasmic’ and didn’t expect ever to orgasm.
My first reaction in both cases was ‘Why the hell are you telling me this?’ (both instances were in office settings and out of the blue) and the second was ‘how sad.’
That last clearly indicates my own limitations. I mean, I can only approach the issue as a male but that’s just surreal to me. Living without orgasm is something I would sure as shooting be trying to overcome if I were them.
But they both seemed OK with it. Not even in a sort of resigned way. They both seemed perfectly content, claimed to enjoy sex and their sex lives but simply never orgasmed.
I’m sure I’m just not getting my head around the concept. Again, my own limitations.
But some opinions from the ladies wouldn’t hurt this poor confused male. I remember reading in ‘The Joy of Sex’ about 20 years ago that men were a lot like ‘orgasm machines’…put in a quarter and out comes an orgasm (forgive me) and that women were built differently.
I can enjoy non-pen sex simply by using oral techniques, there is no need for me to go the full way, I’ll get off at Edgehill if my woman is satisfied.
For non UK dopeers getting off at Edgehill is Britspeak for stopping before you get to the end of the journey, Edgehill being the last train stop before Liverpool Lime St train terminus.
I know this is totally a useless thing to try to explain, as obviously men and women experience sex in drastically different ways. I’m one of those women who can’t have an orgasm with a guy in the room. It’s just too distracting. But it dosen’t matter at all, because it’s hardly even related to sex for me (and I think for a lot of women, which is why I’m telling you this). It’s apples and oranges. Sex with a person is about me and the other person - it’s, dare I say, a social activity. An orgasm is what I’m looking for when I want to relieve some stress, sex is for more complex needs. Not that I’m saying it dosen’t fill physical needs - they’re just not the same physical needs. Actually, I suspect that if I did surprise the hell out of myself and come during sex, it would be an annoying distraction.
I hate to say “sex with a partner is about the experience as a whole”, because that seems like a content-free statement, but it’s true. It’s not that the orgasm isn’t necessary, which is I think what men are often saying when they say they enjoy sex without orgasms, but that it’s an entirely different thing altogether. Sometimes you want to run by yourself, and sometimes you want to play basketball with your friends. Whole different act, although they’re both technically exercise.
Reading over that, I can’t see how it possibly clears anything up for anybody or is even relevant to anybody besides myself, but oh well.
Does anyone know what happens after the first 10 minutes of a porn flick? I always miss the rest. I’m trying to figure out how to say this and not have to have :o in my sig line for the next year. Hmm… basketball is great. I usually score at least 2 or 3 times. Running alone is good, but sometimes it’s a treat for you to let your guy watch you run. I like to watch him run too. Apples and oranges are both wonderful. My guy always finishes what he starts and demands the same standard from me. My brain is fully connected and he can always take the trash out tomorrow. Women are all very different though. I worked in an office with 11 other women and 10 out of 12 said they could take it or leave it. I’m older and probably just selfish enough to want back what I dish out. And if any of that didn’t make sense. Sex is great. I gotta go.
So, you don’t think sex should depend on whether you’ve disappointed her, or hurt her feelings, or flat-out pissed her off? I hate to break it to you, but a great many women just can’t get aroused when they’re hurt or disappointed or pissed. An unaroused woman is either going to refuse sex altogether, or do a pretty half-hearted job of it. Frame of mind is everything as far as sex goes, and when you go into with a bad frame of mind, you’re going to get disappointing results.
Normally household chore things aren’t enough to stop me from having sex. But when I’ve been working 12-hour shifts all week, and I keep asking him to do something, and he keeps saying he will, and I come home and find whatever undone yet AGAIN, there is absolutely no way in hell I’m having sex. I don’t want him in the same room with me at that point, much less touching me or entering my body.
You have to remember, the most important sexual organ in the female body is the brain. If you’ve created a situation where the brain doesn’t want sex, the rest of the body won’t either.
I was always bewildered by a comment from a female friend of mine. Somehow the topic of her vibrator came up. (She brought it up…I think someone was over at her place and she’d left it out or something.) At some point I mentioned that if she were so stressed out (about whatever we were talking about), couldn’t she just relax with her purple friend?
Her response was “I’m so not feeling sexy…I didn’t shower and I’m in sweats.”
That is a concept so foreign to me that now, years later, I still can’t wrap my head around it. I can’t imagine having to feel sexy in order to get off. That must be a nightmare.
I don’t even know what feeling sexy is. Horny, sure. Sexy? Never have I spent a moment of my life feeling either sexy or, and here’s the big one, not sexy. That’s right, ladies…I have never in my life felt unsexy. Try to wrap your heads around that one. hehheh.
No, CrazyCatLady, I “don’t think sex should depend on whether you’ve disappointed her, or hurt her feelings, or flat-out pissed her off?” Granted, if I’ve not held up my end of the deal in a relationship–any relationship, not just a sexual one–that’s reason for discussion. But I can enjoy sex with a woman even if there’s some external factor, whereas it appears that features outside the realm of sexuality can impinge on a woman’s desire for sex.
Not throwing stones or saying one thing’s right or better, but I have always found this difference surprising. And occasionally disappointing.
Bren_Cameron, has Mr. Cameron ever been angry with you and subsequently not been in the mood for sex? Not baiting you here, but I’m sure he has stresses in his life too and I’m equally sure that there have been times when you’ve not felt up to getting around to whatever might be on his list.
People in relationships have different priorities and sometimes they don’t match up. But it has never occurred to me not to have sex because she bounced still another check. (Although the timing for the conversation is important.)
This should never be underestimated, and I think it relates to both the “too mad to fuck” and “good sex without orgasms” discussions.
comma , it’s unlikely that it’s ONE thing which you haven’t done which will put her off sex (and if it is, she may just have issues which are nothing to do with sex). It’s far more likely to be a series of frustrations which build up. Sure, sex might deal with some kinds of frustration, but if all the annoying things are still going to be there after she’s finished chewing the bedcothes, then it might not seem worth the effort to get her head out of crabby-mode and into sex-siren overdrive.
Having said that, I can’t imagine a situation where I couldn’t be persuaded to get my head round sex, unless there was so much wrong with the relationship that I just didn’t find the other person attractive any more.
Sex…
yes, please!!
I’ve had sex with and without the big O, and I’ve enjoyed both. I do enjoy it more with an orgasm but it’s not so important that if I don’t have one, the session’s been ruined. Of course, that said, my SO feels bad for some reason if I don’t have one which makes him try harder the next time. He’s the only man I’ve been with that can give me multiple O’s, which equates with him being a stallion (endurance) and he has a definite interest in making me feel goooooood. I reciprocate with great delight and enthusiasm, which is a perk for us both! So, do I enjoy sex?
Hell yes… I’m a lusty wench. It’s rare that I say no.
Oh, I’ve always assumed it worked both ways. I wasn’t trying to say that men should all do their chores if they want good sex, just trying to explain the difference between using sex as a weapon to get what you want and stress making sex “different” sometimes.
I absolutely don’t doubt that I’ve done (and not done) things that have frustrated Mr. Cameron–I hear about them sometimes, though I’m sure there are ones that I don’t hear about as well. And it would never occurr to me to suggest sex when I knew he was angry, just because I know that I would have a hard time enjoying it when I’m angry. Fortunately, that’s not very often.
I’ve also always assumed that outside stresses can affect guys too–except that for social and cultural reasons, those outside stresses for guys don’t usually include things like the dishes or the laundry or the trash getting out, where for women they often do. So it can look like “do your chores if you want sex,” but that’s not what’s going on.
