It is acceptable only if it is acceptable to the bride. If the bride has a problem with it, then the bride and groom should come to an agreement.
You also said “the bride has to have these horrible images in her mind”. That’s not the case. The bride doesn’t have to have these images in her mind. Not 100% of brides will be bothered with this. I guess you could say that the brides which have a problem with this will have horrible images in their head.
The time you have to worry about strip clubs is if he goes alone or if he goes often. If he’s just going as part of a bachelor party, then it won’t be a problem. The reason is that if he doesn’t find it titilating, it’s pretty boring. But if he does find it titilating, he’ll go all the time. And if he likes to go but you don’t like him going, he’ll still go secretly. Such is the nature of sexual urges. So strip clubs are only a problem if they are a problem. They’re not a problem for guys who don’t have a problem with it.
One time I was in a bachelor party and when we got to the strip club I remembered I had lost my license. I called my wife to come get me since I couldn’t get in, but instead she came out and gave me my passport. What a cool wife I have.
Hey I can answer these Q’s.
‘Would you guys agree that the more you are with someone the more you trust them?’
Yes, the more you know them, the more you can trust.
'Do you trust someone more after 20 years than when you get married? ’
In our case, and I think in most cases, yes. Don’t think you hit 20 years without a certain amount of trust.
‘If so, does that mean you didn’t fully trust them when you committed?’
Here is I think your problem. You look at trust as an all or nothing game, when we are really talking about judgement. I mentioned earlier that the basis of trust in another person is trust in their judgement. I completely trusted ms. dogman’s judgement from the very start. The trust grew for both of us as we gained more confidence in each others judgement.
Perhaps it was the way I was brought up and the people I have known. I have never ever known anyone to go to the nude beach before. I have never had an issue with strip clubs and neither have my friends. I have also never known people who were so adament (sp?) about not wanting their significant other to be friends with an ex. These are how I have known things. I come on the board to get other perspectives, to hear bad stories (I thought leaving your brother on the bus was kind of bad) and good stories (Dog’s is a good story… he did not always do right by his wife and then he matured and their relationship grew to the greatness it is now). Truthfully, his opinion means more to me than someone married 9 months (honeymoon stage still) and someone not even married. Now don’t take offense but Dog has proven that his opinion is successful (20+ years of marriage) and a newlywed is just hoping it will be (don’t get mad). It’s easy to judge when you can’t see the full picture (like me and the nude beach)
And I would say here that if the man ever behaves in a nontrustworthy name, he is by definition not trustworthy. You can’t be kinda pregnant, and you can’t be kinda trustworthy. You can’t have some integrity. A trustworthy man is trustworthy in the face of all contingencies. You’ve heard the phrase “Death Before Dishonor”? That’s what it really means.
At lunch my bride and I discussed this. We happened to be extremely compatible in our morals and values. We differ on many fronts, we are not exactly alike in MANY ways, but we complement each other very well. But I have too often heard other men say “My wife would KILL me if she knew I was doing this.” I cannot see anything I would do that would have those words cross my lips. But I honestly believe that a lot of relationships have the two parties who DO have different values and morals. In those cases, which may actually be the majority of relationships in this country, more work is needed. Take Tster nude beach initial reaction as an example. NO FRIGGIN WAY! (paraphrased) was her initial response, but through discussions, a little emotional self searching, and some fear and anticipation, she went and was fine with it. In that example, the two initially different moral values met up at the same place (Bravo to Tster, by the way, for such a bold and thoughtful act). That took work, mostly on her part, it seems.
On the issue of strippers, she initially has a MUCH different moral stand than her SO on the subject. In this case, she is entertaining a similar “check-it-out-for-myself” visit, which again, I applaud. Shows an open-mindedness and willingness to expand herself. Those are very admirable attributes.
I personally would not stick around very long with someone with such different values, but all I see of their relationship is what she has posted here, which is the trouble she is thinking about. This nudity/stripper/sex issue may be the ONLY stumbling block, and it is in no way insurmountable. If he decides to stop going to strip clubs because of her feelings, that would be a wonderful and kind action. If she tells him she would do something that HE does not like (out dancing with ex-boyfriend) only on the nights he does something SHE does not like (goes to strip club), I feel that is extremely unhealthy and creates a combative environment rather than a compromising environment.
I personally trust everyone until they give me a reason not to, and like everyone until they give me a reason not to. I don’t give them my house keys right away, but by the time I am engaged to someone, I should have no questions anymore.
Thank you Bill for acknowledging that there is more to me than manipulation. For the record, I did not tell him that he can’t go to the strip club without my going dancing (in fact, he has been to the strip club without my going dancing, just about a month ago). The “compromise” we agreed upon was not done in any sort of combative way, although I guess I can see how it might look like that to a stranger not having been there. He truly is the least jealous person I have ever met (him feeling a little jealousy at the beach was the first I ever saw it from him) and that is why I knew I could go dancing with my ex and have it not be a huge problem. It’s because I correctly judged his reaction to my suggestion. If I thought for a second that he would get angry or feel pressured or manipulated or blackmailed, I would not have even thought it to myself.
Uncle Bill - ‘A trustworthy man is trustworthy in the face of all contingencies.’
Completely agree.
'But I have too often heard other men say “My wife would KILL me if she knew I was doing this.” ’
In most cases in the negative experiences I’ve witnessed, the man was too drunk to realize what he was doing, largely because he likely consumed more alcohol than he ever had before. Mostly good guys who were encouraged to consume too much alcohol by less than inncoent buddies.
In one case, the groom sustained an injury that couldn’t be explained away innocently.
As you pointed out, maturity is a factor here. The oldest guy was maybe 25 at the ones I was at. I wasn’t a major player, except to help deal with the problems when they occured.
Last one was over 15 years ago. Not going again anytime soon.
Tster - ‘How can you trust someones judgement from the first day you meet them (the very start)?’
Because the future ms. dogman was the hottest thing going in my small town, I probably wasn’t thinking completely objectively at this point. Hey, I was pretty young.
In all seriousness, Uncle Bill has it right. by the time you are engaged, there should be no questions.
No questions about anything ever? I mean, I agree that you should have all major issues resolved by the engagement one way or another. That is what I am working on now. I do want to note that I am still impressed with a man who understands that the woman would feel uncomfortable with strippers and respects her wishes. That shows that HE is at the point in his maturing relationship where his future wife’s feelings (whether or not he agrees with them) are more important than his friends (and yes, sometimes more than his own… that’s what a relationship is about, give and take).
Not that this has come up at all, but I also believe that age is a big factor, too. When you are very young (early 20s), you don’t really even know yourself, much less someone else. I sure as hell am completely different than when I was 20 (when I got engaged). Perhaps there should be an age limit on marriage (said mostly in jest but partially believe it).
When I go out for dinner and pay for the meal with a credit card, I trust the waiter to not take down my name and number and commit identify fraud with that.
When I’m driving down the road, I trust the semi-truck driver coming the other way is not a homicidal maniac who will plow his 18-wheeler into my windshield and turn me into paste.
When I have my car serviced, I trust the mechanic won’t invent artificial problems and then charge me an extra $2000 to “fix” them.
Trust someone the first time you meet them? We do it all the time.
5 times in five pages. That is quite a record of records. Everything is here for the record. This is the internet.
As for age, there is a strong correlation to maturity, but I do feel maturity is the dominant influence here. I know 40 year olds who are not mature.
And I wouldn’t get mad about your doubts due to our newlywed status, with the number of marriages that end in divorce, that is quite a valid opinion. You know neither of us.
Rjung… this is perhaps another play on words. I MEANT really really trust their judgement, with what is important (the things we are talking about here, relationship issues, not credit card theft).
Would you trust that same waiter with the care of your child, having never met him or without knowing anything about him?
Bill, these are huge pages. But thank you for pointing it out (I bet I said “but” a lot, too). Hopefully, if you are this picky with your wife, she will not get really annoyed with 20 years of it! (the little things turn into big things…) - -
IMPORTANT, the preceding paragraph was said with only humorours intentions… so please don’t get offended.
No. Just no questions about your partner’s judgement. That is where you get the trust, at least enough not to have to ask all the important questions.
Tster, the point you make about age basically means one’s instinct for picking compatible mates, and determining whether your trust in your partner’s judgement, at 21 is not going to as good as say 34.
We’ll of course, and with what I surely believe you will put your current b/f through, if you do make it to the altar, I’d be very surprised if it wasn’t a lasting union. I, too, applaud your perseverance. You are looking to reduce your risk.
But. . . no matter what you do before hand, you always take a risk when you commit. Sometimes it doesn’t work out. But when it does, the fact that your took the risk, makes the reward sweeter. Mind you, this comes from a guy who hit a homer first time out.
Another question for you, Dog… regarding ex’s… do you think that there should be absolutely no limit on the opposite-sex friendships that your mate has? Do you both completely trust the friendship, regardless of the circumstances or do you think there are exceptions? Would you say trusting their judgement in this situation is similar to trusting their judgement at a bachelor party… that you either do or you don’t?
I’ve never really had an ex where I had an intimate relationship, nor has ms. dogman. So I am uniquely unqualified. Not that that has stopped me before from commenting however.
But given that qualifier, yes, I believe trusting in your partner’s judgement should be pretty universal, once you’ve made a permanent commitment (i.e. marriage).
So, if your mate is the friendly type (like my bf & myself) then having many friends of the opposite sex (some closer than others) should not cause any uncomfortable feelings.
The reason I am asking you is because it seems to me that most jealousy is focused on this problem. My jealousy is apparently in the sex/stripper kind of problem. But the general advice given to me here (trust judgement, etc) should apply to everything. Meaning that anyone who feels a twinge of jealousy about another woman/man in their husband/wife’s life has trust issues. Yes?
‘So, if your mate is the friendly type (like my bf & myself) then having many friends of the opposite sex (some closer than others) should not cause any uncomfortable feelings.’
My statement included ‘once you’ve made a permanent commitment’. If the level of commitment between you and your b/f is permanent, then yes. Maybe I’m old fashioned, but for me this means marriage.
‘The reason I am asking you is because it seems to me that most jealousy is focused on this problem.’