Ethics of dating in mid-life

In My Humble Opinion
41

[QUOTE=Contrary]
Actually I have been in this situation and didn’t increase his value in my eyes. Mostly I thought he was being a tool and trying to come across as such a playa.

In a different situation where it was clear the guy wanted to date around, I said no worries. Also no sex, b/c I don’t swap juices. He was mostly OK with that, although he did admit later that he was surprised I was up front about no sex if he was dating around–but hey I didn’t want any nastiness passed on to me.
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Sex implies commitment/exclusivity to me…YMMV.

42

You might findthis old thread helpful.

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[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck]
Sex implies commitment/exclusivity to me…YMMV.
[/QUOTE]

When single, I sure never assumed that.

44

[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck]
Sex implies commitment/exclusivity to me…YMMV.
[/QUOTE]

My mileage does vary. I like to be clear and will make the statement (when I’m ready) that I want to be mutually exclusive. Then if he does, we’re good. If he doesn’t or he makes the statement before I’m ready, there’s a choice to be made. This is a point in favor of dating for a while before having sex. It gives you a clearer idea of if you want to commit.

45

She hasn’t called (so says caller ID) or emailed to rearrange. AFAIC, that means we won’t have a date this weekend.

If it’s my own weird head, so be it, but 48 hours is minimum notice. I’d like someone who is proactive enough to make that call and set something up, and not wait till the last moment. I haven’t written her off completely but I think of this as sending a jury out for deliberation. That is, the next time I see her she may say, “Hey, I really wanted to get together but there was a family emergency…” or she may say nothing. Whatever the case, I’ll evaluate it if/when. She may be interested, but not interested enough to make a go of it.

I have two other options for Saturday night and I already have plans for Sunday. Both options for Saturday have pros and cons and there’s always staying in…but that has pros and cons as well.

Sometimes I think that if you aren’t really crazy about each other, a LTR ain’t gonna happen. How can you sail around the world if you can’t get off the dock with a modicum of ease?

46

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
She hasn’t called (so says caller ID) or emailed to rearrange. AFAIC, that means we won’t have a date this weekend.

If it’s my own weird head, so be it, but 48 hours is minimum notice. I’d like someone who is proactive enough to make that call and set something up, and not wait till the last moment. I haven’t written her off completely but I think of this as sending a jury out for deliberation. That is, the next time I see her she may say, “Hey, I really wanted to get together but there was a family emergency…” or she may say nothing. Whatever the case, I’ll evaluate it if/when. She may be interested, but not interested enough to make a go of it.

I have two other options for Saturday night and I already have plans for Sunday. Both options for Saturday have pros and cons and there’s always staying in…but that has pros and cons as well.

Sometimes I think that if you aren’t really crazy about each other, a LTR ain’t gonna happen. How can you sail around the world if you can’t get off the dock with a modicum of ease?
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Funny, isn’t it?

All she has to do is a simple phone call. A little bit of effort..hardly any at all and she can have you! But…for some reason she doesn’t. I wonder why that is? :dubious:

What should you do? DO NOT call her. That is the worse thing you can do. If you don’t call, there is a small, but nonzero chance she will call because she is puzzled and intrigued by your lack of calling…she may be thinking that you may deserve more thinking about because you haven’t called.

If she does call, don’t leap on it. Say you want to think about it and that you will call her (implying but not saying you have a busy life and other opportunities.) Wait at least TWO weeks then call her back and try.

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Like I said in my first post in this thread…it is absolutely AMAZING how many family emergencies, friends/family coming into town staying the night etc when you call em eh? Amazing. Yes, there might be a small chance it is true but the vast majority of the time she is blowing you off. Assume she is and don’t take the crap.

47

[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck]
Funny, isn’t it?

All she has to do is a simple phone call. A little bit of effort..hardly any at all and she can have you! But…for some reason she doesn’t. I wonder why that is? :dubious:

What should you do? DO NOT call her. That is the worse thing you can do. If you don’t call, there is a small, but nonzero chance she will call because she is puzzled and intrigued by your lack of calling…she may be thinking that you may deserve more thinking about because you haven’t called.

If she does call, don’t leap on it. Say you want to think about it and that you will call her (implying but not saying you have a busy life and other opportunities.) Wait at least TWO weeks then call her back and try.

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Like I said in my first post in this thread…it is absolutely AMAZING how many family emergencies, friends/family coming into town staying the night etc when you call em eh? Amazing. Yes, there might be a small chance it is true but the vast majority of the time she is blowing you off. Assume she is and don’t take the crap.
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Were I smitten with the lady, I might be more worked up about it. As it is, I figure she answered my question(s)—is she confident enough, together enough, etc.? Is she going to stand on gender and not call?

Could be she’s not as interested as I thought…or it could be that it’s a game to draw me out. Could be there’s another guy and I’m in the bullpen. I don’t know; doesn’t matter.

I can tell you that I’ll almost certainly run into her at other events. I plan not to mention anything to her.

It’s all learning curve though. I figure if I date women, I’ll find some surprises (some nice, others not), so although she hasn’t called there may be something yet to gain from the experience.

I’ll keep you posted.

48

Update: I saw her at a picnic yesterday. There were 70+ people in attendance. We said hi, how are you?

And that was that. I wasn’t particularly avoiding her but I didn’t go out of my way to make friendly, either. She seemed to be of the same mind.

It seems to me that the first date ought to be pretty easy. Later on you get into the heavy communication, making compromises and trying to see the other person’s point-of-view etc. So if it’s this hard to make a first date work, I figure it saves a lot of time, energy, money, whatever to just let it go.

A saying, on a church sign: “Don’t put a question mark where God put a period.” I agree.

49

Re the three dates thing:

Please don’t jump from “not even a touch” to grabbing her and throatily whispering into her ear “I wanna sleep with ya so badly.” One of my dates? friends? did that, pass the can of rolleyes. If I’ve gone to see three movies with a guy and he hasn’t so much as grabbed my hand, I assume he’s interested in movies with me but not interested in sex with yours truly, so my reaction to the “I wanna sleep with ya” wasn’t what I’d call positive. We weren’t middle aged but definitely past college age.

Best wishes with the dating thing :slight_smile:

50

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
It seems to me that the first date ought to be pretty easy.
[/QUOTE]

I certainly agree in principle, but I can’t help but wonder if you may have given up a little too easily here. You only made one phone call, right? If that call lasted for 45 minutes, it sounds like there was a bit of a connection there. A second call doesn’t seem like that big a deal.

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@ Nava: Right, there should be some sort of build up. Again, I’m not necessarily even thinking sex on the third date but it seems to be a general principle that many follow.

@ Tom: My concern is that she put me off when I called, so I think it’s on her to rearrange. If she had called just to chat or sent an email to say hi, I might have taken more initiative.

IMO when you ask someone for a date, there are two possible answers. 1) Yes, and 2) everything else. As others have posted, too often “everything else” is really a blowoff. We aren’t teenagers so I figure she ought to know that some guys will take it as “no thanks.”

Again, I’m not that gung-ho about her. I don’t know enough about her to think she’s perfect for me or anything. But even if I were, I think I should stand on principle.

52

Stand on principle, and sleep alone. (I just made that up - you like it? :smiley: )

I get what you’re saying, but I kind of agree with Tom - saying “I’m busy this weekend” doesn’t make it a “leave me alone, you creep.” As you said, she’s a mom, and she has a life without you - it is perfectly normal for her to be busy some of the time.

I think you should call her one more time, and ask her to a specific event. If she says anything but “Yes! I’d love to!” or “I can’t this weekend, but how about next Saturday?” then I’d write her off.

53

[QUOTE=featherlou]
Stand on principle, and sleep alone. (I just made that up - you like it? :smiley: )

I get what you’re saying, but I kind of agree with Tom - saying “I’m busy this weekend” doesn’t make it a “leave me alone, you creep.” As you said, she’s a mom, and she has a life without you - it is perfectly normal for her to be busy some of the time.

I think you should call her one more time, and ask her to a specific event. If she says anything but “Yes! I’d love to!” or “I can’t this weekend, but how about next Saturday?” then I’d write her off.
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BTW her kids are grown and moved out. She said she divorced some 10-12 years ago and devoted herself to raising them, didn’t give a second thought to dating until now.

54

But she still has kids, and even adult kids can make your social calendar full. Not to make excuses for her, of course, just that going for coffees and shopping and movies and family dinners can (and should) still take the time of a mother, even after her kids are out of the house.

Not giving a thought to dating for 10-12 years and just living for your kids is a little off-putting, though. Surely there’s a healthy balance between living for your kids and having a life of your own still. Oh, well. Do what feels right for you, and let the chips fall where they may.

55

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]

@ Tom: My concern is that she put me off when I called, so I think it’s on her to rearrange. If she had called just to chat or sent an email to say hi, I might have taken more initiative.

[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, this is where people of both sexes make the biggest blunders. How does she know that’s how you feel? You even said when she told you she had plans for Friday and Saturday, you felt she was kinda hinting around that she would be available Sunday. So then you decided not to be “manipulated” into doing something with her on Sunday because you didn’t want her to think you had no plans or were willing to rearrange your whole schedule for her or whatever. Open and honest communication is the key to ANY adult relationship - friendships, dating, working and “LTR” types, too. For god’s sake, it’s like you are trying to be as difficult for her to read as possible. Guess what? She may be over that if she’s in her 40’s. She’s seen her kids date guys who acted like you…when they were in their mid-teens. I am not attacking you and I certainly don’t mean to insult you but read your posts as if they were written by someone else. Then read the posts of Grossbottom and BlinkingDuck. Maybe that “bad boy” crap works for people in their late teens to late twenties but it’s old and tired at 45. You aren’t impressing any mature lady with your illusions of mystery. Also, you are overthinking the entire thing, IMO.

My rules:

If you want to call someone, then do it. In the 21st century, that includes girls calling guys. Now, I was raised not to call guys, but even at the age of 12 I realized that was dumb. Your acquaintance here is about 10 years older than me, I’d guess. She may have been raised the same way, or at least raised not to ask a guy on a date. She’s been out of the dating scene a long, long time. Call her or don’t, but don’t make it a damned game. It doesn’t matter if it’s been three hours or three days since you last spoke. Pick up the phone. If you plan to wait on the girls to make 50% or more of the moves in the relationship, you will end up with a psycho or no one.

If you are planning to play the field or date multiple people, let all of them know up front. To do otherwise is sleazy. If you are having sex with more than one person at a time…well, in my opinion carrying on two or more sex relationships at a time is not really cool. Maybe the kids can do it and be ok with it. Maybe other people would call ME a prude but it’s my opinion. I know I wouldn’t be having sex with anyone that I know is having sex with someone else. Even if you don’t worry about the “love” factor, there’s still the STD factor.

Don’t call women “gals”. I’m not particularly feminist-minded, but ick. That makes me think of 60 year old geezers who clack their teeth at young girls in the supermarket. Gross.

You said you want to get to know someone. How do you get to know someone by playing teenage, angsty games?

If you ask someone to dinner, pick up the bill. Christ.

As others have covered, there’s no rule about what date someone should have sex on. Let things happen naturally, but if you are going to have sex, make sure the other person knows what kind of step (or non-step) that is in the relationship.

56

[QUOTE=Jaade]
In my opinion, this is where people of both sexes make the biggest blunders. How does she know that’s how you feel?
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She doesn’t. I’m just reading the signs (or lack thereof). I understand what you mean—that we have to communicate. But I also understand that there are supposed to be a few things we expect from others, e.g. politeness or common sense. Like I said, if she had emailed or just called to chat, I would have probably taken more initiative from there.

I suspect we all “evolve” ways of damage control to accomodate our peculiarities. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, she really hates to call guys. When she was growing up, etc., she lost a few guys because she just couldn’t bring herself to call back after she had to decline a date because other obligations prevented her.

Then as she grew older, she would learn ways to get around that. Maybe she would act REALLY disappointed while talking to them. Maybe she would make a point of saying hello at school. Maybe she would talk to a mutual friend in glowing terms about how much she was looking forward to a date. Whatever.

[QUOTE=Jaade]
You even said when she told you she had plans for Friday and Saturday, you felt she was kinda hinting around that she would be available Sunday. So then you decided not to be “manipulated” into doing something with her on Sunday because you didn’t want her to think you had no plans or were willing to rearrange your whole schedule for her or whatever.
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Did I say “manipulated”? That wasn’t what I thought. If she has been partying with her friends Fri/Sat, I don’t want the leftovers. Also as posted upthread somewhere, Sunday dates aren’t exactly the bomb. And, she didn’t come out and say, “Well if you’re available Sunday let’s get together then.”

[QUOTE=Jaade]
Open and honest communication is the key to ANY adult relationship - friendships, dating, working and “LTR” types, too. For god’s sake, it’s like you are trying to be as difficult for her to read as possible. Guess what? She may be over that if she’s in her 40’s. She’s seen her kids date guys who acted like you…when they were in their mid-teens. I am not attacking you and I certainly don’t mean to insult you but read your posts as if they were written by someone else. Then read the posts of Grossbottom and BlinkingDuck. Maybe that “bad boy” crap works for people in their late teens to late twenties but it’s old and tired at 45. You aren’t impressing any mature lady with your illusions of mystery. Also, you are overthinking the entire thing, IMO.
[/QUOTE]

Bad boy? Wow have you got the wrong number! Impressing her? Never crossed my mind. Overthinking? It wouldn’t be the first time.

[QUOTE=Jaade]
You said you want to get to know someone. How do you get to know someone by playing teenage, angsty games?
[/QUOTE]

As I posted earlier, I’m not smitten with her. I think that’s the key. It’s all cost-benefit. Since I don’t perceive her as someone I’m totally hot for, the cost doesn’t seem worth it. And that cuts both ways: if she were totally hot for me maybe she would have pushed harder.

I think we’ve failed to reach critical mass. I’m willing to shrug and keep looking.

57

[QUOTE=featherlou]
I get what you’re saying, but I kind of agree with Tom - saying “I’m busy this weekend” doesn’t make it a “leave me alone, you creep.”
[/QUOTE]

Yes it does.

If it didn’t, she would have made that abundently clear at the time. She didn’t.

lobotomyboy63’s post right before yours is spot on.

Not calling her means you still have a small chance - she could call back asking why you haven’t called and that the last rejection was not a global one…but she would only do this because you didn’t call. Calling her means you have zero chance. In my life, I have had several of the former, none of the latter (and I spent many years of my life clueless and did call).

Feather…if you truely liked a guy and were available…would you do what she did to lobotomyboy63? No way. You would have accepted or made clear that the current rejection was only for that night.

58

[QUOTE=Jaade]
Then read the posts of Grossbottom and BlinkingDuck. Maybe that “bad boy” crap works for people in their late teens to late twenties but it’s old and tired at 45. You aren’t impressing any mature lady with your illusions of mystery. Also, you are overthinking the entire thing, IMO.

[/QUOTE]

Over 40?? What lobotomyboy63’s and I say apply EVEN MORE to after 40.

It’s not an illusion of mystery. It’s cutting through the crap.

See…when you are teens and early 20’s, life is simplier. The girl is either going out with someone or available/not interested in you or available/interested in you. What lobotomyboy63 and I advocate works well to find out which one.

As you get older…people get more (trying to be diplomatic) screwed up. Life grinds them down. In addition, people get more ‘set in their ways’. The same ideas that worked with young women now work in weeding out the really screwed up ones or the really inflexible ones.

59

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
<snip>
As for the friends in town…my bullshit meter didn’t go off. She said something like, “It looks like I won’t be available till Sunday…” as if to imply that if I chose Sunday, she’d be up for it. It wasn’t explicitly stated so I let it go. I figured A) maybe she’ll be too exhausted after the friends in town, and B) I don’t want to make it seem like my schedule is infinitely flexible.<snip>
[/QUOTE]

I dunno, Blinking Duck, it does sound like she didn’t just slam the door shut. I think you’re focussing on the “It looks like I won’t be available” and I’m focussing on the “until Sunday.” :slight_smile:

It’s all moot, anyway - it doesn’t sound like LobotomyBoy is all that interested in this lady. And she didn’t make any effort after that, either, so yeah, I’ll be willing to go with “not interested enough” for both parties.

By the way, I think you have an excellent attitude towards all this, Lobotomy. I liked internet dating for what I called “concentrated dating.” I think dating is a skill like any other skill; you get better at it by practicing and doing it. I mean dating, not IT. Although if you want to do IT too, be my guest. :smiley:

60

Personally, as a woman approaching my gulp 40s, I can honestly say - if I said the Sunday is free thing - and you didn’t pick up on it - I would have thought:

“He didn’t pick up on Sunday. Maybe he’s not that interested in me. Is he not interested in me? I thought he was interested in me. I better not push it, don’t want to appear needy. I can’t be needy, I’m a grown-woman with kids goldangit and I should know better but maybe I’m over thinking it, okay stop overthinking it. am I overthinking it? Goldangit I’m overthinking overthinking it! Forget it, mel, life is too short. OMG life is too short. Maybe his johnson is short. Yes his johnson is probably short. Well, I didn’t want his short johnson anyway. I wish my friends weren’t coming Friday and Saturday. Oh why were they coming Friday and Saturday? Should I bring up Sunday again? Maybe I should bring up Sunday again. What did he just say? I should be paying attention. Why am I not paying attention. Who should pay? Should he pay? I don’t think I can afford to pay. What if he expects me to pay? I hate dating. I really hate dating. But I want sex. Oh that reminds me, time to buy more batteries. What’s that beeping in my ear - is that my battery dying? Should I go now or try to scramble for my charger. Charge? Could I charge the dinner? Not the Visa, maybe the Mastercard. Did he just call me a card or did he say scarred? My scars! If I’m naked, he’ll see my scars! But if I’m naked, I’m probably having sex. Mmmm sex. I miss sex. Sunday? Did he say yes for Sunday? No, he said he was going to go have a sundae. Oooh - chocolate! I love chocolate. Oh no, he’s hanging up now. Goldangit.”

Yes, that’s really how my chocolate-deprived brain would work.

Good thing I have a boyfriend and lots of sex, eh? :smiley:

Seriously, though. You said you were on meetup.com, right? So am I. LOVE IT. But anyway, have you thought of just posting a shout on her meetup profile? Just something like “Nice to see you at the [insert name of the event where you had the 70+ people here].”

Short and simple, letting her know that you aren’t hatin’, just waitin’. At least she would know that you haven’t tried to block her from your memory or anything. That way, even if you guys don’t date but do run in to each other at another meetup, you won’t feel like you didn’t make the last gesture.