Evil Dead Mafia II - Teaser and Sign-Ups [Game On!]

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@NAF1138

OT: I don’t remember what my take on Macey was in that game. I am curious what I thought at the time (though clearly not curious enough to go look it up myself.)

I went back and scanned. I looked at a few of your posts after Macey’s fishing. And, you did end up casting a vote for Chucara for…fishing!

And what’s even more ironic, is that Chucara’s fishing was asking for Alpha and Beta claims (There were 2 types of Vanilla in he game). And Chucara’s reasoning was that it would lock Scum into claiming one or the other and if the numbers were disproportional it might help us find Scum…kinda like NAF’s support for Total’s idea in this game.

It’s slightly amusing to me, but certainly not anything that makes me look at NAF any differently that I did before finding all of that. The game was a long time ago. Individuals changes, as does the community as a whole.

@NAF1138

Ok, so first things first. Sorry I haven’t been around much. Those of you who know me know that that will change as soon as I am able to make it change (within a day or two max), those of you who don’t…sorry.

So my thoughts.

1. Hi macey. Welcome to the show. You are about as wrong as wrong can be wrt. Pede and how it should be handled and I find your subsequent posts backing out of your suspicion and throwing suspicion onto brewha and hawk to be…wrongheaded at best. Pede was clearly the lynch leader at this point and the Day is nearly over. Would you have rather lynched a mason than have one claim Day 1? No good my friend.

You are also fishing for information on the Alpha/Beta idea. No good as well.

2. It was damn obvious to me that Pede was likely town. His slip wasn’t even a slip. That being said, I don’t think that there is anything scummy about Pleo pointing it out. I think pointing it out was a mistake, but everyone makes mistakes.

3. Thank you to Story for the response. I wanted to see the possibility of scum co-ordination on Day 1 vs. scum staying out of the fray. I am looking back on that right now.

4. It doesn’t look like we are going this way today, but I think that the Alpha/Beta role claim thing is interesting. I am not sure what the purpose of the mechanic is yet and I don’t want us making that sort of claim. I think it’s interesting to see the people who have been pushing for it though.

Macey, Chucara, and Almost Human have all come out in favor of a claim of Alpha/Beta. Macey and Chucara pushing for it a little more than AH. I don’t know what that means, if it actually means anything at all yet. But it’s something to keep in mind.

That being said, I might actually be in favor of a mass claim of some sort a little later on in the game, around Day 3 or 4, but not toDay and not Tomorrow. We need to gather more information before we can risk handing out information of our own.

Back in a bit with a vote and a repost of a post I wrote in another game that will explain (a bit) where I am coming from these days. As of right now I don’t know who my vote will be on. Maybe macey, maybe someone else. I need to finish taking a good hard look at how the votes came out and then see who wasn’t voting. At first blush it looks like there are some fairly wonkey votes out there. I don’t get any of the JSexton votes or suspicion, for example. Same with the Thing Fish votes. So…back in a bit.
(Crap, that took me over an hour to put together. It might take me longer than I thought to get back with my vote post. But it will be today at some point. )

@NAF1138

This is a repost of a rather long theory post that I put together for the offboard game. I am rather proud of it, and I think it sums up how I am approaching mafia these days fairly well. So in the interest of transparency (and ego) I am reposting it. It also speaks to the “Scum would never do that” argument. Because…sometimes scum won’t ever do that. I have made some minor changes to it to keep it timely and readable. But it is 99.9% the same post as in Super Mario Brothers. For new players to the group, everything I reference can be found (with at LEAST a link to the game) in the wiki. Unlike the last game which was bogged down with information, I am actually willing do discuss some of the below in this game if anyone seriously wants to. I don’t know that you will though. But I figured since I hadn’t had much time to post yet toDay that this will give everyone a decent intro to my thought process, kind of the cliffnotes for NAF for those of you who haven’t played with me a lot.

Disclaimer: The following was originally written in response to a direct question, which is why it reads like instructions.

Ok, warning, long mafia theory post ahead. We can take the discussion out of the game if anyone really wants to have a serious talk with me about it, but after this post you will know where I am coming from and either agree with me or not. I am not really interested in arguing the merits of my theories in game though. Again, I am more than happy to talk about any of them out of the game thread.

First, town has to be willing to punish wantonly anti-town play in the early game without fear that they might lynch town. Odds are you are going to lynch town on Day 1, and they aren’t much better on Day 2. You have to let the fear of early mis- lynches go and simply get people to start behaving as pro town as they can, this is so you eliminate a lot of confusing data. When people stop intentionally doing Anti-town shit, the stuff that pops up is easier to manage. It also provides a baseline for vote and behavior analysis. The first couple of lynches are more informational than anything anyway, and early scum lynches are sometimes more of net neutral than anything. (More true of early vanilla scum lynches than other types)
Second, you have to recognize that not every anti-town action is going to be pro- scum, and that every single player in the game will take anti-town actions at some point in time. The only player I have ever seen fail to ever take an anti-town position was zuma in YSI, and only in YSI. Right now I would say that roughly everything posted in the first 4 or so pages of the game has been anti-town. We are not ALL scum, and this is not an atypical start to a game.

Third, you have to recognize that not all pro scum actions will be anti-town. This is where things start to get tricky, but as a general rule we have actually been fairly good at not keeping people alive simply because they are action pro-town. We did lynch Pollux in Marvel Comics Mafia, and that was good. We recognized that even though he played pro-town he was also playing pro-scum, and the pro-scumminess of it all became obvious as endgame came near.

I firmly believe that Pollux’s death in the Marvel Comic game was a sterling example of what I have always said, if you keep scum talking long enough they will have to out themselves. It is not possible for scum to play 100% pro town and win. So promote pro-town behavior but recognize that after about Day 2 you are not looking for people who are acting in an anti town fashion, but rather people who are behaving in a pro-scum fashion. This is harder to see, but you can actually eliminate people from lynch contention as the game wears on because their behavior has been consistently anti-scum. Scum can not play anti-scum in the long run. If they do they lose the game.

This is one of the reasons why I think town should do it’s best to quash lurkers and to smack down fluff talkers early on. Fluff and quiet are a scum’s best friends. But if you force real analysis early and often from players the scum can not hide, because eventually they will have to fudge something in order not to hand the game to town, because scum can not play anti scum long term. The trick is to be able to separate anti-town but also anti-scum, from anti-town but pro-scum. Anti-town behavior gives scum a good place to hide. It is harder (but not impossible) to be pro-scum and pro-town. And it is my feeling that it is impossible to be pro-scum and pro-town long term and stay hidden.*

As for how you tell anti-town from pro-scum, well, there is no one magic bullet sure fire method, and some of it comes down to “I know it when I see it” for me. But at the very least, you always want to ask yourself “if I were scum, why would I do that?” Because, as those of us who have been scum frequently know, it is not possible to post anything as scum without thinking about how it will make you look. You can not post pure, and everything will have some sort of ulterior motive, even if that motive is only to look townie.

So, from the above what I think we as players need is a system that changes with the progression of the game and actually analyzes both raw data as well as behavior. (Because one should not ignore the fact that raw data is also good at scum catching) Town should be working toward town confirmation as much as working toward scum catching. Sort of working from both sides and meeting in the middle. And then, lastly, town should not ever rely on one single action to create a lynch. Good unimpeachable data (from say, a cop) can be used, but never behavior. It is too hard to sort the wheat from the chaff on the basis of a single action. But when you have multiple pro-scum actions, as well as supporting raw data then you have a good lynch.

• so if multiple someones start telling you that your behavior is anti-town, for god sakes knock off that behavior or it WILL be in the towns best interest to lynch you, regardless of your alignment. Sometimes it’s good to lynch town for information, and sometimes it’s good to lynch possible town to keep the record readable. Not a popular sentiment, but a true one.

Ok, so back in a little bit more with a vote. Really, I mean it.

@NAF1138

@Zeriel

Kinda weird for me to agree with NAF this much. =P

Yes…it IS kinda weird. :dubious:

I want to see where the macey train is rolling. So I don’t think I will vote for him right now. Instead:
**
vote Chucara**

for fishing also, but being more subtle about it.

@NAF1138

@Hawkeyeop

It is a new feature post conversion.

Naf, can you explain why you are voting Chucara over Macey. Subtly is more suspicious than bluntness?

More or less. The one thing that gives me pause is how blatent Macey was. It was a coin toss, but Macey’s bluntness put Chucara over the top for me.

@NAF1138

@Rapier42

NAF, would you hook a brother up and go into more detail on where Chuc’s been fishing? I don’t see it.

It’s about the Alpha/Beta thing. He is one of the few people that was pushing for Alpha/Beta reveals. I don’t know what they have to do with the game as of now, but I know that they wouldn’t be in the game if they didn’t mean something. (Something could be story throwing us a red herring, but that is still something.)

He isn’t the only person to do that, but there is a certain undefinable quality to his posts as well that I am not liking. It’s just a little more fast and loose than he was when he was such a good townie in Marvel, and I know that is metagaming but sue me.

As I have said before I can’t unknow what I know about players, but I am not hanging my argument on that either. It’s just one more factor that makes him more suspicious in my eyes than others. It was close to a coin toss as to who I was going to vote for, Chucara just edged out the other candidates. Macey was the closest 2nd place but as time is going on I am less ok with that lynch. It’s reminding me of Buff’s lynch in the current offboard game.