<snipped>
maybe you are full of shit. 
Oh, and I never said he doesn’t pay attention when he’s town. I said that he doesn’t pay as much attention.
Also, is it really so hard to believe that a player pays more attention to the game - and to what he’s posting - when he’s scum than when he’s town?
Probably a bit of both.
Hmm. I believe there’s a difference between “not convinced” and “not quite convinced” - which are the words I actually used in the post you linked to. Nice omission…
I saw a player making an apparent PIS slip. This was a new player who had just made his second post since the start of the Day. I was unable to reconcile the low number of scum with my experience in previous games and the original version of this game so I was “not quite convinced” that this was a case of a PIS slip and therefore hesitant to vote immediately. First I questioned Romanic directly about the statement - he basically said he’d mixed up this game with another one. A moment of “hmm”, but still no vote as there was the issue with the low number of scum. Then, when Special Ed placed his vote, I asked Special Ed how the number could possibly be correct - he replied with several scenarios in which a 4-person scum team could be feasible. Special Ed had previously commented about how we tend to give newbie players the benefit of the doubt - I realized that part of my hesitance to vote was due to exactly this and since there was a way the numbers made sense, I placed my vote.
Hey, it looks like I have a soapbox topic.
Scum don’t need to fish.
One more time.
Scum don’t need to fish.
Say it with me this time so you get the feel for it.
Scum don’t need to fish.
Really, they don’t, it’s true. I almost guarantee you that any time barring maybe three early games that I can think of when scum has been “caught” fishing the actual player will come back and tell you that, no, they weren’t actually fishing it just looked that way. Scum know who other scum are. Scum know that ANYONE else is a quality target. Scum know that in a balanced game there are some power roles that can probably hurt them, but that the odds will take care of that fairly quickly as long as they are smart. Scum also know that 9 times out of 10 power roles sit around and practically scream out that they are power roles.
I have never played on a scum team, ever, where we didn’t know who the majority of the power roles were by mid game, and most of the time we knew what type of role they were. It’s easy to find power roles as scum, just look for the people who are acting scummy.
Scum don’t need to fish. Scum who actively fish are either inexperienced or just don’t know any better, the rest weren’t actually intending to fish for anything.
Fishing is a crappy scum tell. You know who you usually catch fishing? POWER ROLES. So fishing is a bad reason for a vote.
Ok, moving on and getting off my soapbox.
Oy!, you don’t know me, you admit as much in the quote. So don’t try to build a case on how my play is different this game. It’s not cool. And don’t say you weren’t using it to build a case, because you included it in your case post. Let other people judge that one. I will get to the personal life stuff later in this post, but really you don’t know.
As for the claim discussion:
If you *did *know me you would know that for probably the last 15 games or so that I have played in I have pushed for town to give up harmless bits of information early on. Almost every game. Town hurts themselves by holding back information and the more we know the better off we are. I think I have said something to that effect in this game already. Something about how this is a game about information vs numbers. I am fairly sure I have. Go look.
Point 2, on mass claiming. Go back and quote my post where I “mildly push” for a mass claim. Go on and take a look at it. I did not advocate a mass claim, nor did I call for one. I *specifically *did neither of those things. All I did was bring up a discussion topic, and a fruitful one at that. (It got us our first solid piece if information today after all). You don’t see me directly advocating any one position over another in this game until **Drain **and **Total **start talking about posting bit’s of color. It’s an idea I like. Mostly because I can easily lock myself into a bit of color that could be used against me if I tried to fake claim, but that doesn’t reveal anything about my status as a vanilla or power role. But also notice that I didn’t push hard. That’s because I don’t really care about the result of the conversation, I care about the conversation. That’s where you end up catching scum. It’s in the in between bits.
Hell of a smudge there buddy boy. It’s this sort of thing that I don’t like about your post. You include these little digs that don’t accomplish anything but are designed to make me look bad when in reality they aren’t actually anything. It’s like the bit about not knowing me above so you don’t know if I am setting up safety for change in play style. We call this smudging. (We call a lot of other stuff smudging too, but anyone who uses the term in any other way is wrong. Trust me.)
You don’t know what I have going on in my personal life on this side of the computer screen. I am going to put this down to a culture thing, but we generally operate on the assumption that people don’t lie about real life stuff, and in return we don’t lie about real life stuff. Also, I believe I said I only had 15 minutes to play right then. Admittedly I haven’t gone back to look, but since you didn’t link to anything I don’t think anyone else will either. Convenient that you didn’t provide links isn’t it? (See I can smudge too). I play on my breaks at work or if I am on hold on the phone or something, sometimes I spend time playing when I shouldn’t. That’s my problem not yours. If I play longer than I should have it doesn’t make me scum, it makes me an addict.
As for wanting the Necronomicon, yup, I wanted it. I made no secret of it. So did several others. It was early in the game and I have trouble resisting shiny things. I also think I should be allowed to keep it, but I will do whatever town wants in that regard, I don’t really care.
So, what I have to ask is, what is it that you thought was scummy enough to get me a vote over other folk? Couldn’t be the fishing, because that isn’t actually a quality tell. And the rest of your post actually had nothing to do with anything other than trying to make me look vaguely suspicious.
So why are you voting for me again? I am going to have to ask that this time you actually say why you think something is scummy rather than just saying it is.
Normally this would be the point where I place a vote on you for your bullshit case, but you are new and enthusiastic and I think this is a case of the newbies not a case of scum trying to grab a lynch. So no vote right now.
Aaargh.
unvote
vote: Drain Bead
unvote
vote: Oredigger
“If it weren’t for the fact that the suspicion of Guiri actually did need explanation, whereas the vote on Oredigger did not; and despite that it could backfire if it was a soft bussing; I think this might be scummy. Except more so if Guiri might actually get lynched today, which he won’t. But maybe.”
LOL. I like your soapbox, NAF. Can I climb up there with you?
Tons of room up here and frankly I could use the company.
I, for one, was not at all confused.
- Idle mentioned his case against Drain
- Idle Acknowledged the case against Oredigger
- Idle presented a case against Guiri.
Then he voted Oredigger. Doesn’t seem all that strange that he though the case he brought up wasn’t the best one.
So, because the case was so strong against Romanic all reactions to it are null tells?
Really?
Did you actually read the comments that Oredigger made? Those comments that he himself admitted look Scummy?
Maybe you should go back and read them before you handwave them off.
In the Original Evil Dead, Scum Macey was lynched on Day 1 for obvious fishing.
I’m just saying…
Note the newbie clause. Also, I believe that Macey came back and said that she wasn’t actually fishing in a dead thread, but I could be misremembering.
I suppose Macey was newer back them. He had played a bit on Facebook. (And I think that is the only game he played off of facebook)
Here’s his actual quote that got him into trouble. It is oozing fishy smells. I think it is extra fishy because he was actively fishing for information from a Day 1 claimed Mason.
(who had stupidly stated “got my role…looks cool” Which honestly, the roles did look cool, as long as they weren’t the already published Vanilla ones)
Well, that was disappointing. I really thought we had a repeat of Harry Potter’s Day 1. Sorry, Romanic. Nice plates.
Well, at least the Day is still early, and we’ve got more to work with than just handshaking nonsense.
Right now, the things that I am looking at:
The Idle Thoughts/Drain Bead exchange. Actually, this has the hallmarks of a town on town clash to my eye. But it’s something to reconsider if we learn more about one or the other.
In #431, Rysto threw out a smudge against Oy!, but didn’t follow it up.
The bandwagon onto Romanic. I think this is the most important review right now, since we know that Romanic flipped Town. Lots of words under the spoiler bar.
[SPOILER]#460 Guiri made the reveal, but did not vote.
#466 Ed switches from TL to Romanic, first vote.
#469 Guiri votes 2
#471 Wanderers votes 3
#472 Drain Bead drops from Idle to vote 4. Comments that 4 seems like too few scum.
#473-474 Normal sides with Romanic as town
#475 Drain Bead promises to FOS Guiri if Romanic flips town.
#480 Brewha votes 5
#486 NAF votes 6
#487 Maha votes 7
#491 TL abstains
#492 Normal leans on Romanic to claim
#496 lilflower votes 8
#497 Normal changes his mind, votes 9
#498 telcontar drops wanderers, votes 10
#500 Rysto votes 11
#507 Astral reviews Romanic, finds some scummy behavior in the editing discussion. Votes 12
#516 Suburban votes 13
#518 Oredigger talks about getting his vote out there, but doesn’t actually vote yet. Very waffly post. Waffley? Waffely?
#519 NAF points FOS at Normal.
#527 Oredigger votes 14
#529 Hal votes 15, with a bit of taunting added.
#530 McGinty doesn’t think he’s scum, because he would have paid more attention if he were scum. Smears Normal.
#531 Peeker votes 16
#534 McGinty reiterates that scum would never make such a scum mistake
#536 Nanook votes 17
#538 Cookies votes 18, calls for a claim
#541 TexCat doesn’t think Rom is scum.
#547 Chipacabra drops Natlaw (Yes, it was just a prodding vote) and votes 19. I didn’t realize I got in so late; a lot happened while I was asleep.
#548 Oy! votes 20, points out that maybe rom was making a defensive play.
#552 Hurr hurr ass cum. Typo aside, Hal is being very flippant in this and 553. I’m willing to write this off as play style for now.
#555 Romanic claims as the hitchhiker, without full details.
#569 Idle drops Drain Bead, votes 21
Around this point, we get a discussion about whether or not Romanic should walk if he’s telling the truth.
#612 USC refrains from voting after seeing the claim.
#636 Omi abstains
#650 ed says that if Rom walks, he will vote for Ore
#680 Stanislaus votes 22
#696 USC votes 23
#707 Rom legs it.
[/SPOILER]
So, looks like Oredigger is under the lamp now. Rightly so; his comment that he left his vote in place because it didn’t matter is anti-town. Even if it’s obvious that someone is going to swing (or walk) but you believe he’s town, you PULL YOUR VOTE. If something had come up that either exonerated Rom or made someone else more suspicious and for whatever you’re not around to change your vote, it would be harder to save him.
That being said, I get a little more of a ‘town playing wrong’ vibe than a scum vibe from Ore at the moment, but I’m going to keep an open mind there.
Going back to my review of votes. Here’s the thing that stood out to me:
Rysto wasn’t willing to vote for Oy! possible slip in 431, but was willing to vote for Rom for basically the same crime. Difference being that a bandwagon had started.
Right now, that’s most suspicious to me, so:
vote Rysto
I did misremember in that case. I don’t think that is really the same thing at all as what is typically described as fishing. He wasn’t trying to get someone to out himself as a power role, he was trying to get the claimed power role to give up useful info. That’s different. Still sort of dumb, but it’s a different flavor of a thing.
OT: I don’t remember what my take on Macey was in that game. I am curious what I thought at the time (though clearly not curious enough to go look it up myself.)
Need? No, I guess not. Is it helpful? Yes. Do they do it? Yes.
:dubious:
Do they do it? Yes, sometimes. But sometimes does not make for a quality tell. Is it helpful? To scum or to town? Scratch that, doesn’t matter. You are wrong. I detailed why you were wrong in my soapbox post. You are wrong.
Beyond that, while I love talking about game mechanics and strategy, your :dubious: smiley tells me that you think this has some relevance to my own role in the game. It doesn’t. I have posted a variation on the same screed in my last several games as both town and scum.
I went back and scanned. I looked at a few of your posts after Macey’s fishing. And, you did end up casting a vote for Chucara for…fishing!
And what’s even more ironic, is that Chucara’s fishing was asking for Alpha and Beta claims (There were 2 types of Vanilla in he game). And Chucara’s reasoning was that it would lock Scum into claiming one or the other and if the numbers were disproportional it might help us find Scum…kinda like NAF’s support for Total’s idea in this game.
It’s slightly amusing to me, but certainly not anything that makes me look at NAF any differently that I did before finding all of that. The game was a long time ago. Individuals changes, as does the community as a whole.
Let me follow that up with a question for you Maha, how do you think you should go about finding scum?
When you are a power role, how do you think you should go about determining who you should target with your power?
Town and scum fish far more often than scum, because scum don’t need to fish. They already have the information. Numbers vs information. We have numbers, they have information. Why do they need to fish for power roles? Particularly when I promise you that almost all power roles broadcast their status as such if you know who the scum are.