Opinions are meaningless? That has got to be one of the strongest claims I think I’ve heard on this board. i wish it were GD. sigh
Well not all opinions are meaningless, just unsolicited ones.
MGibson said:
" . . . And I’m afraid I’ll have to dispute your claims that this is a place where we’re all here to fight ignorance. Places like the Pit, MPSIMS, Cafe Society, and IMHO are not areas devoted to fighting ignorance and enjoy some amount of popularity."
I disagree with this statement, Marc. I’ve learned just as much IF NOT MORE about the human condition from reading what folks post in the Pit, MPSIMS, Cafe Society, and IMHO. GD and GQ are great, but they are not the sole province for fighting ignorance, and for you or anyone else to say so I think is elitist, ignorant, and not very attractive. I’ve learned a lot from just reading this thread, but I really hesitated on opening it because I could tell from the title that it would be exceedingly problematic. I’m glad that I did open it, even though as tired as I got watching folks argue back and forth about what it was you meant in the OP and whether or not it was valid and expressing hate or hurt feelings, I realized that something good could come of it.
If folks read this thread, as painful as it is, in its entirety, they can see how a person has to start somewhere–voicing an opinion–to make progress in fighting his/her own ignorance. Someone said they thought this thread is odd and they don’t understand your motivations in starting it. I think that’s the most valid statement in this thread. I don’t know you, and I’m not sure why you started this thread either, but I hope you’ve learned something from it. I’m glad to see that you apologized for the OP, and I wish you well in your process of fighting ignorance, both your own and others.
Over 100 replies and 1600 views in a day seem to prove otherwise.
Marc
I think erislover has hit the nail on its big fat head.
“Fat is ugly” is an objective statement but with subjective words; whereas “fat is considered ugly” is a qualitative statement. Not to mention very true, unfortunately.
For those who don’t believe “fat is considered ugly,” I think you may be deluding yourselves. While you (and I) may be overweight and still loved or accepted or considered attractive to others, we are not - for better or for worse - the standard of beauty today. And we are clearly talking about the standards of the day, and not of the somewhat distant past.
Does this suck? Fuck yeah (IMHO). Is it hurtful? Sure, particularly to those impressionable young women who starve themselves in order to appear attractive by society’s standards. My ego can take it, and if yours can’t then you really should work your ass off to lose weight. Cause there are very few people who can’t lose weight, who are clinically incapable. I know, you’ll all shout at me about how your doctor says such-and-such, and you’ve got genes galore, etc. etc. Bullshit. Either accept the fact that your lazy (like me) or do something about it. Change your eating habits, exercise, etc. People tell me it’ll make you feel better - though whenever I try it it makes me feel like shit. Now lying in bed with a chocolate chip cookie, THAT makes me feel good. Mmmmmmmm…real good.
Fat=ugly? Fuck no. I live in LA and if you ask me, attitude=ugly. But is fat considered ugly? Yep, c’est la vie.
Sez you.
People rubbberneck to see a car crash, does that make it meaningful? No.
Sad, stupid, disgusting, pointless, Maybe.
I will try to rephrase this so that maybe even you can grasp it.
I never said opinions were meaningless, you did.
What I’ve been trying to say is that opinions should only matter to the person who holds them. You are entitled to your own opinion, that is undisputable. But you have no more right to force another to condone that opinion than another person has the right to force you to condone theirs.
If you can’t understand that then you are beyond help.
Yes.
Quite frankly, I do not understand this. Any expression of opinion carries with it the possibility that it will affect someone who is available to hear, read, or otherwise perceive that opinion. To avoid “forcing one’s opinions on others” entails, quite literally, the complete abandonment of expressing opinions.
Apart from that, I see no particular evidence that opinions cannot be enforced even beyond what I have outlined above. It is a matter of opinion which opinions can and cannot be expressed, and especially in what manner those opinions may be expressed. To cry that those opinions are meaningful only to the people who hold them is demonstratably false.
[li]I am of the opinion that taxation is stealing.[/li]However, consider the government’s opinion for further enlightenment.
[li]We are of the opinion that taxation is not stealing.[/li]Their opinion certainly has meaning even if I do not agree with that meaning. No amount of hand-waving will stop them from taxing me. No matter what subjective value I place on taxation (for example, if the government were to say “taxation is good” while I say “taxation is bad”) is going to change the demonstratable fact that the government’s opinion on the value of taxation directly affects me.
Is this an objective assertion or a meaningless opinion?
**
But just a few post back you agreed with me that opinions were meaningless. Make up your mind.
**
No you didn’t say that they “should” only matter to the person who holds them. What you said was that my opinion was relevant only to me. That must be false as many people, yourself included, thought they were relevant enough to warrant a reply. I know you’ll come up with some bullshit answer and weasle your way out of it.
**
I’d like to know when I attempted to “force” others to condone my opinion. Can you please provide an example?
At least come up with things I did not what you imagined.
Marc
Scoot over Billy and toss me a pretzel.
I don’t think fat is considered ugly. I’m a size 12/14 these days, and I truly love my body and it is beautiful. I’m not even going to say I think it is. It simply is. I have great curves, nice breasts, a lovely long neck, beautiful hands and feet, fabulous calves. My belly isn’t flat and my thighs are a little chunky, but it doesn’t matter to me. I hike regularly with my dog and I am in great shape.
You know what? I was the same size, same body, about seven months ago and I was distraught. I thought the only way a specific guy would like me was if I lost weight. But my attitude has changed since then. Slightly overweight? Absolutely. I could stand to lose twenty pounds. Am I going to? Why should I? My body is beautiful already. I have more confidence in my body than I do in my personality.
I’m not going to everyone’s cup of tea, but it doesn’t matter. A lot of people aren’t my cup of tea, either. That’s life. If someone doesn’t want to see me naked because they think my curves are ugly, I’ll just wait for someone who disagrees. I don’t have any doubt that within an hour, someone will come along who does.
As for society’s viewpoint - bullshit. I walk into a bar with one of my good friends who is absolutely beautiful. She’s a size 6 and has the most gorgeous hair ever. But she doesn’t have much self-esteem, and you know what? I beat her to the dance floor every time, and I get hit on more, and I walk away with more numbers every single time we go out. How does that fit into this theory? Give people a little more credit for originality.
Eris, if you truly can’t get a date, reconsider your attitude. I seriously doubt it’s your body that’s bringing you down.
As for me? I go for chunky guys. My latest ex had the cutest love handles. His thighs were chunkier than mine and he had a belly. Was he beautiful to me? Absolutely. If not for some personal problems, I would have my hands all over him right now.
Like I said, some people are deluding themselves. You may have a sparkling and outgoing personality, which can be very attractive. But if you take a photo of two women, twins let’s say, and one is larger than the other, how much you wanna bet most people find the slimmer one more attractive.
When it comes simply to appearance, I don’t think it’s a big surprise that society views thin as more attractive than fat. Is this news to you?
Well, N4S, I haven’t been overweight forever. Pretty recently, in fact. I have also been, largely, the same person since I was, oh, 21 maybe? (that’s four years for those who are counting) I became more mature, but at my core I really haven’t changed my opinions much, and the way I interact with people has been very similar as well.
At any rate, without excessive rambling about who erl is as a person, those who know me would say that, fundamentally, I have only changed my weight. Even my general appearance has remained similar (goatee to beard to goate, but always some facial hair; head hair is largely short; glasses (hate contacts) etc). What has changed is: weight! Perhaps it is anecdotal evidence, and perhaps I am not as perceptive about myself as i think i am, but the case seems to be very strongly towards my analysis.
And don’t get me wrong, it isn’t that I doubt that people might find overweightness in its myriad forms attractive. I personally find women who are more overweight than underweight to be attractive, so I stand as proof of this to myself. It is simply that, since I’ve gained weight, the women who find me attractive has certainly dwindled away to, apparently, zero.
That said, you “attitude” analysis might be interesting to consider. I am not very intuitive. I do not give “hints” nor do I receive them. If you don’t actually say something I am not going to read into your actions to presume what you mean by them.
I suppose that makes me superficial in the most literal sense. I believe what people say when they say it, and I do not assume that they have any motivations for saying what they say other than they mean it and they wanted to let me know that they mean it.
As such, if Marc says “fat is ugly to me” I see no reason to doubt him or attempt to contradict him. Unless he contradicts himeself outright I find that the statement should be treated “as is.”
I am, ultimately, frustrated by people who would rather imply something than just say it. As such, this takes me, largely, out of the “dating” game where implications are the norm and the spoken intention is feared to be “too serious” or whatever.
You know? Maybe not. Some people just don’t understand that. I had an ex GF who certainly felt that “unspoken but understood” was the best relationship. Needless to say, that relationship didn’t last very long (6 months, actually, which some people do consider long but whatever).
The existence of people who are, in some way, attracted to overweight people has not presented itself to me as a means to achieving a relationship. It seems, by all rights, to have actually been something that is true “in theory” but I find it lacking “in practice.”
I think fat is generally perceived to be ugly by enough people to have rendered those who would otherwise conssider dating me turned off. I see nothing wrong with that state of being: I either change or deal with it.
It is an honest opinion, and I would rather hear it spoken openly than hidden because of fear of “hurting someone’s feelings.” As such, even though I disagree, I am very resentful of people who attack someone for presenting an opinion openly and honestly.
I also think MGibson’s retraction is not completely understood here, either, because of the inherent ambiguity in “attractive.” I can certainly find people “beautiful” without finding them attractive, and I can find people attractive that I do not find beautiful. I still think Marc finds extremely obese people “not sexually attractive” regardless of whether he uses that judgement alone as a method of “whole person evaluation” or not. I know many beautiful people who I, in no way, would ever consider a relationship with. I am not ashamed to admit it, and I have never used “hurt feelings” as a reason to hide it.
If I don’t like you, and you ask why, I see no reason whatsoever for dancing around the truth. I think any attack on expressing such thoughts is counterproductive to tolerance, pluralism, respect, and the general case of expression.
:checks post length: [sheesh, what the hell brought that on??? Ramble ramble ramble…]
What I am still unclear on is - why was this thread started?
Does anyone here REALLY think that fat people (myself included) don’t KNOW how society views us? How the media views us? There have been umpteen threads devoted to the topic.
What a lot of us DON’T know is that not everyone thinks fat is ugly. But it happens to be true. Yeah, really. And a lot of us don’t know that there is a distinction between “Not attracted to” and “UGLY”. When I was a kid, I really had no clue that even though I was a bit larger, I still had a lot going for me. And that I could still be considered “pretty” or “cute”, or even (God Forbid) “attractive” to some people. I had no idea that this was a possibility - because, after all, I was fat, and that automatically made me UGLY. It has taken years for me to finally grasp that the media (and some outspoken assholes) do not speak for everyone. And that fat is not automatically UGLY. Even though some people seem determined to never let us forget (even for a teensy-weensy second) that, to them, fat=ugly. God Forbid we ever forget that, right?
So, while Marc has apologized, and that’s great - I still don’t know why this whole thing needed to be dredged out, yet again. Or that some of you seem so hell-bent to REMIND us of something that we are constantly being reminded of, every damned day.
Hama, I guess my original point (admittedly unclear, even to myself) is that the term “ugly” is generally used as a judgment of looks (and certainly that’s what was meant in th OP). I found it odd to be calling someone ugly or not based on something (fat-healthy vs. fat-unhealthy) that you can’t tell from sight. You’ve clarified your statement, so I don’t need to pick this particular nit any longer.
That could probably be due to the fact that she’s so attractive that men feel intimidated and afraid of her. They see you with her and go for the, apparently, easier target. I’m not saying you’re easy, but since you were likely less attractive than her in most men’s eyes, they figured it would be easier to get your number than her’s.
Oh. What a thing to say. 
I’ve seen Nacho’s photo. She’s very attractive. I’ll bet she gets hit on more because she exudes a happy, outgoing attitude, seems “accessable” (as in, she’s not a snob, or bitch) and she has self-assurance and confidence. These qualities, coupled with a pleasing appearance (which she has) will make any girl a knock-out.
Nacho’s friend (from what I remember from Nacho’s account) probably exudes some insecurity, and perhaps lack of confidence, which is being mistaken for “stand-offish”. My take on it, anyway. Sarah can clear it up for both of us.
Oof, I knew that would come off the wrong way. What I mean is, if I see two women, one gorgeous and one semi-gorgeous, I’ll usually end up going for the semi-gorgeous one. The semi-gorgeous one would probably be more in my league, and I would probably be way too nervous to hit on the gorgeous one, anyway. I think a lot of men are that way. At least that’s what I’ve witnessed nearly every time I go out. Anyway, where is this photo of Nacho?
Click on the red little house marked www under her posts.
Nacho4Sara
I think the misunderstanding here is this: you are not morbidly obese. You say you carry a couple extra pounds, but from the photo on yahoo, you look like you carry it very well.
Some people are overweight and are full of life and energy. These people are not fat in my book.
The only way I can agree with the OP is if I say obese or morbidly obese is ugly because when someone, barring a medical condition, lets themselves become so overweight that they can’t be active and that it is seriously detrimental to their health, it is hard to see the beauty in that.
I’m not talking about having 50 or even 80 but more in the realms of 200-300 pounds of excess weight. I have seen people like that. I have had people like that in my classes.
My own brother is drifting towards fat at an alarming rate, and it is not due to a medical condition, it is due to the fact that he eats junk food because he is too busy with work and doesn’t exercise anymore. He used to play badmington 2-3 times a week, bike in the summer, cross country skiing in the winter, etc… He is 5’8" and used to weigh 150-155 lbs. He was healthy and active, and he took the time to make food at home. Now he weighs 225 pounds and growing. Everytime we meet, he is heavier by 5 to 10 pounds. He is starting to get winded when we go for walks in the mountain where my parents live. I think that sucks. I tried to get him to come to the gym with me a couple of times but he doesn’t like it, so there is not much of a point. If he would just do something, and stop ordering food or stopping by McD’s or Subway, he would lose that weight and regain his health. His doctor told him he should lose weight, that at 26 he shouldn’t be in such a bad shape and that he needs to be more active. He doesn’t do anything about it. I find that ugly.
Okay, I just saw Nacho’s pic by clicking on that little, itty bitty red house. Well, all I have to say is if you’re happy with your body, what does it matter what anyone else thinks? If someone posted that they think thin guys are ugly, I wouldn’t be offended, because I wouldn’t give a shit. Why some of you are getting upset about what MGibson wrote is way beyond me. I still think that if someone is going to criticize someone else’s looks, they’d better be damned near perfect themselves. Unfortunately, MGibson won’t produce a picture of himself so I guess we’ll never know.
Well, it wouldn’t be such a big deal if fat people weren’t reminded constantly that they are “ugly” (by outspoken assholes). Like, when they are walking down the street, going into stores, meeting random strangers. You get enough day-to-day cruelty from people everywhere, your thick skin and patience has pretty much worn thin. Especially if you’ve been getting it for years. Especially when you get it even when you are just a teensy bit overweight. My gosh - people can be so cruel. Why perpetuate it?
We’ve heard it enough, thank you. No need for one more genius to tell you what you’ve been told all your life. Even if it is just an “opinion”. An opinion each of us is entitled to express - but I ask again - for what end? What’s the point? Just to rub salt into an already painful (and never allowed to heal) wound?
Or, to put it in another context: let’s say a guy is going bald. Do you REALLY think he doesn’t know he is bald? Do you REALLY think that he needs to be reminded that he is bald? Do you REALLY see any pressing need for someone to start a thread to express his/her negative opinions about baldness? Don’t you think that the media (and random assholes) will never let the bald guy forget for a second that he’s bald, and therefore (in some people’s eyes) lacking in some sort of “beauty”? Isn’t it a bit cruel to “rub it in”?
Not that all of us aren’t entitled to express our opinions. But really - can anyone claim with a straight face that they don’t understand why people would get pissed off by this thread? What? Are you living under a rock?