And the call goes out to the bullpen for Elvis, relief feces pitcher.
Are you under the impression that you’ve been calling me something else? What else can you do when I accuse you of racism and its true, either acknowledge it or call me liar.
The worst part is that you don’t even seem to recognize that you are a racist (just like you don’t recognize that you have indeed called for the investigation of all Muslims but don’t seem to recognize it because you haven’t said the words’ I think we should investigate all muslims" The inevitable result of your suggestion leads to the investigation of all muslims, I pointed this out to you in a previous thread and you didn’t skip a beat.
The fact that you don’t recognize the inevitable result of your own position is your deficiency, not mine.
It is the province of cowards to run around calling others cowards, especially on the internet.
Your cowardice was pretty obvious to everyone on that thread except you and the guys that ended up getting banned.
Well, that is why I put Finn on ignore.
So you don’t think the immigration law is racist?
Yes, he does, but only in the most inexcusable cases. He frequently finds a way to excuse Israeli racism in ways that would be difficult to get way with here in the USA (well, he’s from Texas so maybe the standards are different there).
Did you miss the law about citizenship and immigration for palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens? You think those are full rights under the law?
Sure, they’re better than many other countries and if you want me to condemn those countries, just name then and I’ll get my wagging finger ready to condemn them too. The fact of the matter is there is no other country we are as close to that engages in such inequity (with perhaps the exception of Saudi Arabia).
Yeah, thats part of the problem.
Well, when you combine that with comments like “I wonder why you focus on Israel so much, I wonder what it is about Israel that makes their transgressions worthy of so much more attention than all the others in the world” That sounds like an accusation of racism to me.
I agree.
The citizenship issue is perhaps the clearest example, you can muddy almost everything else with “exigencies of war” type stuff but this is hard to rationalize. Explain to me why it makes sense to let the Palestinian spouse of an Israeli continue to live in Israel with their spouse but not allow them to have Israeli citizenship? Explain to me why it makes sense to deny citizenship to the children of that marriage even when those children are born in Israel? What purpose does it serve other than racism (or perhaps an effort to suppress the growth of the non-Jewish arab population).
“Palestinian” is not a race, it is a nationality. Non-Palestinian Arabs in Israel have full citizenship rights under the law.
This is not intended to imply agreement with the law, merely to point out that characterizing the law as ‘racist’ is factually incorrect.
You double-standard-having racist!
(Sorry, just filling in until Damuri gets back)
“Finn, I’m ignoring you! You’re being ignored! I am not caring about what you say, or talking about you all the time! This is you, on ignore!!! I’m not responding to you! I have not kept talking about you, again and again and again, for many of my 70 posts in this thread, which I am ignoring! I am not certain that I have the mechanics of this ignore thing down pat yet, but I am ignoring you! Finn, do you hear how hard I’m ignoring you, because I don’t think I can ignore you any harder!”
“I can’t actually cite any of the examples anywhere, but Finn surely goes on and on excusing lots of racism, yep! All the time!
Also, he doesn’t excuse racism a lot and actually condemns it, but this is because I, Damuri the Great, am so brilliant as to make those examples absolutely rhetorically inexcusable, so Finn must relent. You don’t have to thank me. But you might thank me for keeping Finn from calling you an anti-Semite.”
“Finn does not make apologies for racism, this is part of the problem! Also, the fact that I am not particularly intelligent or cognizant of what I read, that too is part of the problem!”
"It sounds like that, of course, is because I am an idiot.
Also I think Finn is very coy.
Although, to be fair, maybe one of the many reasons that Finn says people may be arguing for a specific narrative is that some people who aren’t racist against Jews but are bigots against Israel might say something like:"
DA, I am really not going to waste my time going back and forth with you. Maybe, for some reason I cannot fathom, Finn and others enjoy it; I do not. In brief, no it is not racist for reasons that have already been explained. It may or may not be unjust, I do not know as I have not really given the issue a full hearing, but it is not racist.
If you have remained blissfully unaware of the discrimination against minorities in other countries, from the Roma and less so Muslims in various countries of Europe and Muslims as well in parts of the US, to the Kurds in Turkey, to … well the list goes on and on … well then you are among the willfully ignorant and the fact that so many are willfully ignorant is why it has taken longer than we thought.
As to why some people may be so committed to shoving Israel’s transgression, real and imaginary, into a particular storyline in which Israel is the Death Star and the Palestinians are the Rebel Alliance? Oh for some I am sure it is anti-Semitism but for many not. For many it just makes a nice simple storyline that fits with a simplistic worldview: all conflicts must have the good guys and the bad guys and they are obligated to force the “pseudocomplexity” of real events into those formats - and in particular are very fond of pegging one side as evil colonialists and the other as noble savages - a storyline that in does no justice to either side in the real world.
You tell me. Why do you do it?
It’s fun to do it a bit… it’s like watching a wrestling match between a gorilla and a toddler. You know you should avert your eyes, but there’s a sick fascination and you just can’t look away.
Okay. You’re a liar.
That was easy.
You, STILL don’t get it. Amazing. Maybe you are dumber than ElvisL1ives. I don’t care if you call me a racist. Believe what you want in that regard, but THAT is not what I called you out on you dumb bastard.
Oh, so now you agree I have NOT said those words. Good. That’s some progress. But your claim is now that my position of NOT investigating all Muslims inevitably leaves to investigating all Muslims :rolleyes:, just because I want to apply a filter of Muslimness. Well, you can claim that to be a fact, but that doesn’t make it so. So, now it is incumbent upon you to provided a logical argument that shows that that is the case.
The fact that you don’t understand that my position of NOT wanting to to investigate all Muslims, and that doing so would be inefficient and unhelpful, does NOT equate with the position of wanting to investigate all Muslims. So grand is you idiocy. Only to be outshined by your dishonesty.
HAhahaha. It is the province of lying idiots to try to imply that their opponent is wrong because they thought he was wrong on a different date, in a different thread, about a different topic. There’s a bunch of fallacies in there, Liar. And you’re not aware of even one of them, are you Liar.
Well, you certainly are good for entertainment purposes. Like Leno’s Jay Walkers.
I knew this guy was not the brightest firefly, but I had no idea he was a dumb as he actually is. It’s actually a bit difficult to accept. Overlay that with his sheer ignorance of logical fallacies and prideful dishonesty, and any slapping him about the ears does have a sideshow quality to it.
I must admit that I’m starting to feel a bit like I’m kicking a puppy. A mal-formed puppy with a brain defect.
But his assholeness takes away my guilt.
Five pages, my my. Anything interesting happen other than **magellan029828209u72 **attemping to excuse his disgusting bigotry?
Less of this and more stoking the flames, you.
I guess I was using racism as shorthand for discrimination, in much the same way that people might have characterized discrimination against the Irish, Italians and more recently Mexicans as racism even though Irish, italian and Mexican aren’t actually races.
I’m not unaware of other dscrimination but I don’t really get push back when I condemn discrimination elsewhere. It is only in the defense of israel that people will leap to the defense of racism, to recharacterize it or to trivialize it. So one reason I argue against Israel is because noone really stands up to defend racism when it is called out in other places (at least not on this board).
I also think some of it might be because I expect better from Israel. This leads to my second point, I don’t think Israelis are bad any more than Americans under George Bush were bad. America under George Bush did bad things and those bad things were supported by a lot of Americans (in many cases because they were scared or were being lied to).
I don’t believe that Israelis are evil colonialists, they didn’t set their sights on Palestine the way the East India trading Company did. I think the Jewish desire for a homeland is morally defensible, I am not as sure that the insistence that the homeland exist in Palestine no matter the consequences is quite as defensible. I don’t think a LOT of the things Israel does in the name of maintaining a majority Jewish population is morally defensible.
As for the noble savage characterization of the palestinians, I recognize that there are terrorists among the Palestinians. I condemn it as much if not more than i condemn Israel’s transgressions. My criticism of israel’s misdeeds gets more airtime because noone quarrels with me when I point out that suicide bombing is bad. Noone on this board tries to justify it (and if they do i argue with them too).
I also think its a bit silly to dismiss discrimination against Palestinians because I used the word racism instead of discrimination.
They might have, but they tended to classify it as bigotry instead, since as you mention the above are not races.
A “Fuck, sorry, you’re right. I meant bigotry” or some other apology for being a clown would probably have made you look better there.
DA, despite my better judgment I will engage some here.
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If you want to have meaningful discussions then you are best off avoiding inflammatory words and instead attempt to speak with some precision. Also as pointed out, you are best off owning up to being wrong earlier in the game. You have made some pretty major accusations of racism, including against individuals who post here, and then had to eventually admit that said racism does not exist, only either some discrimination that is on par with America’s own standards of behaviors, or behaviors that you could somehow tell were going in the direction of racism, but coyly restrained, by a poster who is known for much on these boards, but not restraint. And even after admitting that what you are talking about is not “racism” but possible discrimination you again use the word. Stop it and do not make that accusation lightly again. In a context in which Israelis are being pegged as Nazis and of creating Apartheid it is very important to react strongly to casual and inaccurate use of “racism” where none exists. And you owe Finn an apology for making that accusation on the basis of nothing more than your inaccurate sense of what he was possibly implying. Man up (or woman up if such is the case) and apologize.
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Cite please of your bringing up discrimination elsewhere on these boards. Oh you discuss some discrimination against Blacks in America, but have you engaged in discussions about the Roma, or *any *of the others?
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No one defends what you might think of as discrimination on these boards? Really? We’ve had quite a run of blatant bigots some being Pitted even as we speak.
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A reasoned debate can be had about what is and is not morally defensible in the service of maintaining one small Jewish majority state in all the world. I do not agree with everything that is Israeli policy and I personally know few who do. Such a debate has to be framed however within a context that Israel has a right to exist and not in the context of forcing facts into a simple storyline if you want to avoid a polarized argument.
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You “expect better from Israel”. Why should Israel, fighting for its existence, be held to a higher standard? I know why I think it should, but why do you think it should?
WTF!?!?! So using the term racist instead of bigot makes me a clown? My explanation of what I meant wasn’t good enough, I had to apologize for using the word racist instead of bigot?
Nah, you’ve already got the face paint, the gigantic shoes, the huge bow tie and the flower that shoots water. That bit of your idiocy just helped put the big ol’ red rubber nose on.
Of course, that you went full retard because I pointed out that your claim of “racism” was inaccurate and it was based on nationality, and you claimed that showed I was “racist” (due to being factually correct and all), well, that doesn’t help you much, either.
Look, you weak little man. It is obvious at this point that you don’t care much for the truth. Gets it comes with being a liar. The fact that you use “racist” instead of another—accurate—descriptor is not surprising. Your positions are either made up or weak, and you seek to make them appear more substantial by using a word that is powerful. The fact that the word doesn’t apply doesn’t matter to you. You are incensed by things and then think you’re justified in demeaning things by any means necessary, ignoring both accuracy and truth. You’ve done it more then one time in this thread, to me included. I’m glad you did it though. You have now made a spectacle of yourself, flashing in neon that you are full of shit, stupid, ignorant, and a liar.
That’s good work! You weak piece of stupid, ignorant, lying shit.
I think you’re confusing yourself. I have lost any desire to have meaningful debate with Finn Again, thats why I have him on ignore. Alessan and Malthus do a pretty good job of presenting a defense of Israel without resorting to Finnesque techniques.
So you also think that saying racist rather than bigot was so fucking confusing that it needed to be clarified?
That’s what you got from my explanation?
Wasn’t I talking about Jim Crow south? Those are not America’s standards, its something we condemn across the board today.
Its not “possible discrimination” its blatant. You’re parsing words to make Israel’s bigotry seem like less than it is.
Stop what? Are you also now defending a law that excludes Palestinians from gaining Israeli citizenship through marriage AND not granting citizenship to the Israeli born children of an Israeli and a Palestinian? Is that what you are defending? Or are you simply taking exception to the fact that I called it racist rather than bigoted, as if bigotry was a more acceptable offense?
I will correct myself and say that its bigotry rather than racism if you think that takes some of the stink off of discrimination based on bigotry rather than racism.
I have no evidence that my impression was inaccurate. When you wonder out loud what it is about Israel that would make me pick on Israel’s transgression over the more serious transgressions of other nations, then what are you doing if not implying that I am picking on Israel because it is a Jewish state?
Explain that to me, I might have been reading Finn uncharitably because he is so adversarial and abrasive and read meaning into his words that he did not intend to put there.
Are you saying that my failure to get up in arms about all discrimination around the world makes my concerns about Israeli bigotry suspect or less valid? Are you saying that my failure to focus on the discrimination of the Roma means that discrimination towards blacks (and American Indians, and Asians, and Mexicans, and gays, and the handicapped) is just a fluke or cherry picking?
No just a defense of a state with discriminatory policies. In fact there has been defense of specific discriminatory laws (specifically the law that prohibits citizenship to Palestinians by marriage). Some people in this very thread have proposed discriminatory profiling of muslims as terrorists without expressing very much concern from people who get all bent out of shape by accusations that some Jews may have divided loyalties.
I’ve been having reasoned debate about Israel with Malthus and Alessan for a while now.
There are many reasons for why I hold Israel to a higher standard.
As a country that was formed as a safe haven from persecution and bigotry, I expect better from Israel.
As a country that is supported by our military, diplomatic and foreign aid efforts, I expect more from Israel.
Its not that I expect Israelis to be victims. Its not that I expect Israelis to sacrifice their lives so that the world will approve of them. Noone, NOONE that I know approves of terrorists attacks against Israel and most seem to think that Israel is one of those countries in which civil disobediance would work very very well, It wouldn’t work so well in North Korea or (as we have seen) Iran. But in a land where people should understand justice more deeply than anywhere else on earth, there is a very large blind spot, which is shared by many of its supporters.
So wait, you are excusing yourself because you are guilty of bigotry instead of racism?
What extra mileage was I deceitfully trying to get out of using the term racism instead of bigotry (and thank you for admitting that bigotry is an accurate descriptor, it will make the rest of the conversation less confused)?