Well October, you didn’t told all the facts before, I agree that the “I have known every single one of these people except Mr. Feely-Hands and his wife since high school. I trust them” factor really adds up for a touchy “what do I do/say now?” situation.
My bets are on the following hypothesis: Mr. Feely-Hands and his wife are swingers, and he was just trying to set up something fun for him and his wife. If you play along, great for them! If not, oh well, the worst that could happen would be a little embarrassment if you stand up and scream “What the fuck do you think your doing?”. I think that the pros were bigger than the cons in his mind.
And dantheman, what a particular country has anything to do with that?
I don’t see any contradiction here; there’s a difference between hitting on someone and striking up a conversation. Conversation is what you do at a party – with men, women, friends, strangers, attached people, unattached people, whomever. While it’s certainly OK to size up romantic prospects while you’re doing so, talking only to people you consider potential mates and ignoring everybody else is rude.
Wow, now I see why I’m having such culture shock moving down south. This Yankee would have said exactly what you wrote above. How is it OK for you to be felt up against your will so he won’t “feel bad?” I don’t get that, even a little.
If I were really worried about making a scene, I might have said “Whoa, whoa- that was my leg! You musta thought it was your wife’s. She’s over there.” or something. Either way, I wouldn’t let politeness override my desire to not be groped. Ugh.
You don’t have to be obnoxious, but assertive is OK, really.
Well, different countries - and to be fair, different towns, states, counties - have different social mores. I picked Brazil because according to your Location field, that’s where you’re from.
Lord Ashtar: no, you’re right–I don’t want to waste my time on him. I’m just annoyed that I HAVE wasted time on them, up to the point they reveal their neanderthal-like intentions. I was over the top on the original complaint in the post, upon further reflection. My apologies (note to self: think about what you’re saying before hitting “submit reply”).
Chimera: I like your suggestion! It’s classy–really suave, too, if I could pull off taking a sip while breaking his finger.
Dan, you’re right; simply being in a hot tub with drinks doesn’t invite advances, but if I had been in a hot tub with a bunch of strange men in my bikini getting trashed, I wouldn’t have been so blindsided if one of them had groped me. I think we’re pretty much on the same page.
And NoClueBoy, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I think my entire gripe boils down to the crassness of some of these guys. Flirting can be classy and respectful without being invasive, and too many people don’t get that. I guess I just need to get the balls (proverbial, of course; or maybe a big metal one with spikes to throw at these louts when they annoy me) to be mean once in a while and tell people when I’m uncomfortable (see above post about my Southern Womanhood credo).
Zette: where did you move from? See, in the south, we must be polite at all costs, especially women, even when being groped. Historically, it is because we had to play the helpless little lady and depend on the menfolk to protect us. I agree, this is messed up, but I’m sure you know how hard it is to break social/familial conditioning. It’s just the way I was raised–never complain about ANYTHING, even invasions of personal space by drunk men. I’m making a conscious effort to be more assertive, however. The martial arts is really helping.
October, I moved from NY to NC. One of my first experiences was when a neighbor approached me (male) yelliing at me about my dogs, making cracks about us being from NY, blah, blah.
I told him to get the fuck out of my yard before I called the cops, and he went next door- stunned- and reported that “that little girl threw me out of the yard!!!” I’ve never seen anyone look so shocked. He later apologized to us and told Allan (my husband) “You got you a scrapper there- she looked like she was ready to throw down with me!” Allan told him I was and he was lucky that he DID leave…lol.
I have no concept of being demure, personally. I’m not a braying jackass, but I wouldn’t ever sit still while someone verbally abused me, touched me inappropriately, or otherwise bugged me like that. I’m not saying you’re wrong, either- I know its how you were raised. I’ve seen it many times down here already, and my own assertive personality has caused me trouble at work and a bit socially. But we’re all getting used to one another.
As I said, assertive doesn’t mean obnoxious. But it does mean being able to say “NO” and that’s that. It’s a wonderfully empowering feeling, it really is. I guess it takes the power away from everyone else and gives it right to you, that’s the bottom line. When that guy was feeling you up- hoping or knowing you wouldn’t say a word, he made you powerless and weak feeling. Had you said something- ANYTHING- even cleared your throat or abruptly got out and said “It just got very uncomfortable in there”, you would have had the power. Sometimes it creates a scene, but it’s over quickly most times, really.
Anyway, didn’t mean to lecture- I do have advice for you though to practice being assertive. If you see this man again, just walk up and say “I want you to know I’m angry over what you did in the hot tub. Don’t you ever touch me again”. End of story. Don’t let him keep thinking he can touch you when he wants- he can’t.
I’m saying that the wife is not culpable and has nothing to be embarrassed about. Her husband is the pig, not her…and as for breaking up the party, well Mr. Gropey would be responsible for that, not his victims. I don’t think we ought to say that a groping victim is by by any sort of bullshit “etiquette” from slapping down a molestor in a hot tub. He needs to publicly excoriated for shit like that and he does not deserve a pass because his wife is in the room. If the wife is embarrassed it’s because HE has put her in that position with HIS slimy behavior. She OUGHT to know what sleazeball he is. It’s important information. No woman has any obligation to be polite about not wanted to get felt up in a hot tub. Etiquette doesn’t mean shit at that point. The guy has already pissed in the water. The party is already ruined.
I view politeness as a social contract. As long as both people are holding up their end, then continued observance of the contract is not just warranted but mandatory. But when somebody disregards the contract — or, as in this case, doesn’t just disregard it, but aggressively flouts it — this frees you from the obligation to honor the contract.
I do not share the view of Miss Manners that jerkoffs and assholes can be corrected gently and politely. When confronted with behavior as loutish as that related in the OP, direct action is, in my opinion, not merely justified, but demanded. If a vicious, toothy animal is eyeing your tender bits, you can ask it politely not to eat you, and then you can hit it with the cattle prod when the request has no effect, or you can just go straight to the electric shock.
Southern hospitality does not ask that you allow the hand of a drunken baboon to take up residence on your thigh. Smack the fucker down. If his wife is embarrassed, that’s her problem. She should be angry at the idiot she married.
Up north, most of the women have fingernails and I have seen them deployed as defensive weapons on a few occasions. No need to comment; just inflict a bit of* pain on the back of the offending hand. If he chooses to comment, that is his problem.
[size1]mind-numbingly excruciating and quite bloody[/size]
I really don’t get it October. He gropes you but you are worried about making people embarassed? You should have cooly said “is there any good reason why your hand is running up and down on my leg? No? I didn’t think so either. Stop in right NOW!” Loud and clear.
Unfortunately you just reenforced in his mind that this is an acceptable behaviour.
There are also different levels of gentility in the south. Frex, my north Georgia mountain female relatives would without hesitation tear a guy a new one for the kind of behavior cited in the OP. My south Georgia female relatives would probably respond more or less as the OP did.
Pedro, I never said it made sense. I’m really regretting not saying anything now. I’m thinking of all sorts of clever things to have said, now that I’m not in the situation anymore. However, that’s just how I was raised. Ladies do not make a scene at any cost. They do not embarass anyone (in this case the poor guy’s wife). Southern ladies are expected to grin and bear just about any situation, and to willfully look the other way when their husbands cheat, sometimes quite blatantly (traditionally, mind you). This is changing, and I’m trying to change and become more assertive. However, I’m contending with a lifetime of conditioning that tells me I should just ignore such behavior, or worse, I must have done something to encourage it, and it is therefore my fault. As asinine as it sounds (and is), I’m sure there are other posters from the south who will tell you that this attitude is common down here. I’m not endorsing it; it makes me furious, because I’m a well-educated, intelligent woman and am assertive enough in other areas and social interactions. But because of my background, I tend to avoid confrontation at all costs, especially when sex is involved. We just don’t speak of Such Things in polite company.
However, if I ever see this yahoo again, you guys have convinced me to pull him aside and tell him to keep his damned meathooks to himself or I will rearrange his testicles.
I can imagine myself reacting the same way, October, at least for the first 30 seconds or so. I really don’t know what I’d do–usually, when faced with an unexpected situation, I can’t think of anything to say until it’s too late, and that would go double for this one. If you had been sitting next to him, though, I"d vote for an elbow to the nose.
OTOH, when I lived in Denmark for a year or so as a teen, it wasn’t uncommon at discos for random guys to grab my butt. I"m not sure what the usual reaction was supposed to be, but they generally looked pretty surprised when they got my fist in their face. Not that I could bring myself to actually hit them, but the threat seemed to be effective enough.
I sympathize with the Southern thing. But Southern ladies can be quite fiery, too. I always much preferred Scarlett to Melanie.
I’m not a girl, but if I were and this happened to me – even in a group of friends as you’ve described – I’d jump right out of the hottub, dress and leave immediately. If anybody questioned me I’d say I had a headache. I don’t defend this, but it’s what I would do.
Ha! Okay, this is great. I just talked to the hostess of the party, and confessed about the hot tub incident. Turns out this guy and his wife ARE swingers. Still pissed off, though. Doesn’t excuse his behavior.
Masonite: I prefer Scarlett to Melanie, also–in theory. In practice, however…I tend to be a Melanie, despite my desire to be assertive and fiery (I like your choice of words). But as regards southern ladies in general, remember, Scarlett got herself in loads of trouble because she was not the typical Southern Lady. Got herself ostracized and became the town pariah–all for asserting herself.
