I beg to differ with what you say here, in detail. Ben is a brilliant man who knows more biological science than 95% of this board put together, and has probably forgotten more than I’ve ever learned. And I can say for a fact that he does not have an issue with Christianity.
He has an issue with fundamentalism. And a very justifiable one, IMHO. In fact, the one conflict we’ve had (hopefully now healed over) is when I declined to jump the shit of a fundamentalist whom he thought quite justifiably was misrepresenting him in a thread, to the point of extreme hostility.
I would love to believe that His4Ever has true Christian love – I’d always thought so, and feel she’s borne up against pile-ons for her beliefs in a very patient manner, returning kindness for hostility. But lately she has been posting (elsewhere) in obvious support of a woman who shares her near-idolatry for the Bible as [deep eerie voice]the Inspired Word of God[/DEV], inerrant in every respect, and who has shown her “Christian love” by claiming that I teach false doctrine, am apostate, and that my political views “verge on treason.” So I don’t know – I’d always seen her as a sincere conservative Christian who warns gay people because she’s seriously concerned for their souls, and who is motivated by Christizan love. Her only fault, if it is one, I thought, is extreme naivete in distinguishing Christian teacher from hatemonger disguised as one. But I don’t know any more.
One major difference I see between vanilla and H4E is that vanilla doesn’t seem to feel threatened by other people’s beliefs. She knows what she likes and wants out of her faith but she feels no need for other people to agree with her on everything. She’s perfectly happy to chat right along with all us heathens and atheists and Pagans without any hostility or fear or bad feeling. She has a sense of humor. She talks to people, not categories like “gays” and “atheists.” As a result, I never see even the most rock-ribbed atheist ever having an issue with her or flaming her, and it isn’t because she’s afraid to express her own views. She just has a way of doing it that never sounds accusatory or mean or self-righteous. It just sounds like she’s sharing her thoughts in a friendly, non-confrontational way.
His, on the other hand, almost always comes off as sanctimonious, judgemental, insensitive, hypocritical and above all humorless. Does she ever post anything that’s not a religious opinion? Does she ever talk about American Idol or The Hulk or the crappy service she got at Arby’s or even the war in Iraq? Everything she posts sounds defensive or proselytizing or judgemental. She seems to feel that her faith is threatened at every moment and she’s not the only one.
What’s happening to Poly on that other board is that some posters are so afraid to challenge the inerrancy of the Bible that they have lashed out someone who has been a longtime board companion and co-religionist. They really can’t see that Christian faith is not inextricably tied to Biblical inerrancy. They are afraid that letting go of inerrancy is letting of faith. They are driven by fear. Vanilla’s faith is inside her not in her Bible, therefore she has no fear. Sometimes Vanilla has said that she’s not sure if she’s really a fundamentalist Christian. I would say that she is fundamentally Christian not fundamentalist. His could learn a lot from her.
You’re right in that first statement. All I can say about the rest is, perhaps I may not have quite as much naivete as you seem to think, Poly. No offense intended.
I would have thought that the differences between my statement and those of the fundamentalists would be obvious, but apparently not. I’ll go over one big difference in more detail:
“All Muslims are terrorists, therefore Allah is a demon.”
This argument is based on false premises. Not all Muslims are terrorists.
“Wiccans are Satanists, therefore they all worship demons.”
This argument is based on false premises. Wicca and Satanism are completely different religions.
“Catholics worship Isis. Therefore, Catholics are demon worshippers.”
This argument is based on false premises. Catholics do not, in fact, worship Isis. Even if they did, Isis would not be a demon.
“Fundamentalist Christians generally believe in a deity named ‘Jesus’ who tortures people for eternity, despite the fact that they love him with all their hearts, simply for making an honest mistake. They also believe that Jesus ordered genocide in the past. Genocide, and arbitrary, eternal torture are evil. Since the word ‘demon’ is defined as ‘an evil, supernatural entity’, Christians who worship this ‘Jesus’ are demon-worshippers. However, plenty of Christians have a radically different version of ‘Jesus’ which is not demonic.”
This statement is based on correct premises. Fundamentalist Christians do, in fact, believe in a deity which tortures people and orders genocide.
I’d also like to point out the distinction between black-collar cultists and white-collar cultists.
As Polycarp has pointed out in the past, FC’s often assume the antichrist will have horns and a tail, and be some sort of naughty bisexual rock musician. But it makes a lot more sense to think of the antichrist as seeming like a devout Christian preacher. It’s like “Level Pink Goth,” the sinisterness of the stereotypical “Stepford wife.”
Black collar cultists are the stereotypical cultists. Maybe they’re satanists who wear black robes and sacrifice small animals. Maybe they’re stockpiling guns for the apocalypse. Few people have any problems calling such groups “cults.”
But to me, the defining feature of a cult is whether it practices mind control in order to keep its members from leaving. I’ve talked elsewhere about how FCism does this, using much the same techniques as Jim Jones did. FCists generally don’t make nerve gas attacks on the Tokyo subway, because there’s so many of them that they can just vote. Even if they don’t have a majority, they can use stealth tactics. The end result is that our society isn’t exactly nice to atheists and homosexuals.
As far as whether they’re a demonic cult, think of it this way. Imagine, if you can, that you’ve never heard of fundamentalist Christianity. Then you meet some people online who believe some odd things about a deity named “Mothizar.” To wit:
We are all worthless, miserable, sinful worms who deserve to be tortured for eternity. But, Mothizar will spare people who worship him in the correct fashion, even while he consigns his most devoted followers to endless torment for not following the proper forms.
In the past, Mothizar ordered genocide. Genocide was good then, and if I had been there, I would have helped out by chopping up babies with a sword. The genocide was necessary because the ethnic groups being “cleansed” were a cancer which needed to be excised. (In other words, the Mothizarians are using Nazi rhetoric to explain their theology.)
Personally, I think that the first point would raise some eyebrows, and the second point would raise some suspicions that the Mothizarians might actually be dangerous. But like I said, Christianity is fashionable.
I can probably get a glimpse according to your point of view. I’ve never said or do I think that atheist, Catholics, Mormons, Buddhists, etc. are evil wicked people. I know that atheists,etc. can be good caring people. However, from the Christian point of view, I’m concerned about their souls and eternal destiny. I believe in one truth for everybody and in what Jesus in the Bible says in John 14:6. So what kind of a person would I be if I said nothing? It would be like walking by someone’s house, seeing a fire, and just going on my merry way without trying to help. I know I’m not saying it well, but I hope you get some of what I’m trying to get accross. Repeat: I never said atheists, Buddhists, etc. are horrible people. They’re simply lost (according to what I see in God’s word) and they need the gospel, just as Jesus commissioned His followers to go unto all the world and share with everyone.
Damn right you didn’t say it well. Honestly, you misrepresented your entire position on the issue.
Here’s what I’ve gleaned from the vast majority of your postings on the matter on this particular message board:
Mormons et al worship something other than God.
Mormons et al are therefore evil wicked sinners.
Mormons et al who point out your favourite sites are full of lies are themselves deluded and tellign lies about their own beliefs.
Mormons et al who just don’t happen to be on your oh-so-convenient-yet-to-be-shared-with-the-world list of “acceptable groups” are not Christians and are therefore evil wicked sinners.
That oh-so-inerrant tome you figuratively beat people over the head with applies literally to others, but only figuratively to you.
[“Casualties of War” court-martial president voice]Does that about sum it up?[/“Casualties of War” court-martial president voice]
But you miss the point that Catholics and Mormons are Christians. You and they have doctrinal differences, but they agree with you in the saving power of Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection. You can go to work on me if you like because I’m definitely hellbound (if one believes in that sort of thing), but the Catholics and Mormons already beleive in Jesus Christ. That Catholics believe in the True Presence in the Eucharist and that Mormons believe Jesus preached in the Americas really don’t matter.
As long as one believes in Jesus Christ as the Redeemer of humanity from sin and damnation, one is a Christian. So lay off the Catholics and Mormons.
His4ever does not feel threatened by the beliefs that people hold, because no matter what anyone else says or does, it will not sway her from what the bible teaches.
The only *?problem? she has, is concern for the souls of others.
Standing by and accepting what others has to say is saying that it’s ok. If someone who is a new Christian was to read this, they can see both veiws and look to scripture to come to their own conclusion. If everyone agreed with everything you guys claim to be true about Christianity, they might think you are actually right. Thank God for diversity.
When it come to something like this, it is not ok to accept just anything. Too much rides on it.
Also, the devil knows that Jesus is the redeemer of all humanity, and that through Him, we can be saved. That doesn’t make the devil a Christian.
FTR, Catholic people are Christians. The Catholic Church and a lot of the higher ups are the ones that are questionable.
Practically all religions start out as cults at first. Christianity was originally a cult of Judaism, Islam was a cult of both, Protestantism was a cult of Christianity, and then it grew, etc.
You can say what ever you want, but you cannot expect her to shut up because you think she is being hateful.
You think we are spreading lies, but there are a whole lots people who think Mormonism is nothing but lies. I don’t know what makes you think you are so special, and that everything you say is true. Must be this board.
You know, you get real angry at her for saying that LDS are not Christians, but I have never in my life met one person (except for those on SD) that thinks Mormons are. That is in and out of church. Gosh, even in TV programs and movies, there are crack about LDS.
We are never gonna like what everyone says, so why not just cool it and deal with the reality of life.
Looks to me like you want it one way.