Addendum: The quote from D&C is what I believe God said and not what H4E believes God said.
Nah, they’re not that tough. Transubstantiation is the doctrine that after thepriest consecrates the bread and wine, they become the Body and Blood of Jesus, while retaining the appearance (or species, to use the Latin word) of bread wine. (Sounds like a copout to me, but hey, I’m a heretic)
The Immaculate Conception, contrary to popular misconception, refers not to the birth of Jesus, but to the birth of Mary. The doctrine, originally promulgated by Pope IX in 1854, said that Mary, in order to be the perfect vessel for the Incarnation, was born without original sin.
His4Ever, thank you for taking the time to respond to so many questions here.
I wonder if you get worn out from struggling with issues that you can avoid.
I can respect you when you say “I don’t believe in that” or "That is not my understanding of the Bible. But I do have a lot of trouble with your unnecessary judgment of other faiths – especially those who do describe themselves as Christians. You really don’t have to judge them. Maybe people would be more willing to listen to what you have to say about Jesus and the Gospels if you would not be so quick to say “They are not true Christians.” You certainly have a right to believe that if you wish, but saying it alienates people that you want to reach.
I don’t think that you are lying and if I used that word, I apologize. But the reason that I said that you gossip is that you pass on information without checking with reliable and unbiased sources. If you don’t want to take someone’s word for what they believe, there are others ways of getting an unbiased view. I hope that you will give them a shot.
I’m sorry that I lost my temper.
Pax
Well, true gobear, but a lot of people have trouble understanding the theory of Transubstantiation. It’s one of those things we have to explain by saying, “It’s a mystery.”
Of course, I’m not really a practicing Catholic any more, but that’s mostly because of people like Rick Santorum and the homophobia and sexism and downright hypocrisy towards sex.
If the church’s attitude towards sex was the same as it is towards helping the poor and education, then I’d probably go back to being Catholic.
Well, explaining it to a nonbeliever does present problems:
‘ello, wot’s this you Catholics are eatin’?
It’s the Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Looks like wine and biscuits to me
No, it retains the appearance of bread and wine, but in essence it is indeed the True Presence of Christ.
Oh, g’wan!
it is the essential mystery of the Mass.
Look, mate, I could go round sayin’ a pint of bitter is really angels’ piss, but it’s still bleedin’ beer, innit?
And so on.
His, we haven’t said WE don’t believe these things, we say not only do we not believe them, but that our FAITH does NOT TEACH THEM!
How many times was it pointed out to you that Catholics don’t worship saints, or the Pope? And you STILL refused to accept it, no matter how many times we gave you links to New Advent or other Catholic encyclopedias?
Guin: She’s not going to accept that because the New Advent and other Catholic encyclopedias are written by Catholics. As far as she’s concerned, those tomes are merely some Catholic folks telling the world that Catholics don’t teach what her extra-biblical scriptures (Chic, carm, etc.) say they teach.
It’s really a very convenient persecution complex she’s created, isn’t it?
:smack: Chick. NOT Chic.
You mean Chick isn’t chic?
No sooner had I noticed that typo, gobear, did I start imagining that raving lunatic walking around dressed as the humans in that old British Sci-Fi series, UFO.
Slight hijack here–
Somehow, the topic of the birth of Jesus came up in my twelfth grade Contemporary Literature course. Being the nitpicky type that I am, when I heard someone (the teacher, maybe?) refer to the birth of Jesus as the Immaculate Conception, I pointed out that technically, by Catholic doctrine, it actually referred to Mary.
First I got strange looks and declarations of “that’s not what I thought.” Then another kid informed me that it was really rather offensive of me to try to tell people what to believe, at which point I replied, “I’m Jewish, why should I care what people believe about Jesus?” :smack:
Or something to that effect.
There’s probably a Moral Of The Story in there somewhere about oversensitivity and missing the point. Or possibly about knowing when to keep one’s mouth shut in school.
Let me put it to you this way. What you have repeatedly said about Catholics and Mormons would be the equivalent of me repeatedly calling you a slut. Sorry, I know that’s a harsh word, but your words have been equally harsh. I can see your hackles and your defenses raising as I type, but wait a moment, please, and listen (OK, read). You have acted in a sexually immoral fashion by my standards. By some other people’s standards, that would entitle me to consider you a slut and call you one to your face. Now, I know you have reconciled your actions to yourself, and I also know your actions are none of my business. Factor in Christ’s 2nd Commandment, and I am not allowed to call you a slut. When you say things about the Catholic Church and the Church of Latter Day Saints which you have repeatedly and authoritatively been told are false, you are slandering them. What makes it particularly bad, in my opinion, is that you have said that you believe non-Christians are condemned. Does this help at all?
Let me give it one more shot, this time going for the absurd. Let’s say I believe Polycarp is not a person, but a large talking fish, whose opinions should therefore be disregarded. If I were to continue to hold this belief, despite photos and the testimony of people who had actually seen and talked to old Many Fish, and continue to spread that belief, however sincerely I held it, I would be doing what you have done with Catholicism and Mormonism. I can choose to believe Polycarp is a large, talking fish, or even a school of large, talking fish as hard as I want, but that will not change the reality that he is, in fact, a male human being.
So it is with Catholicism. You may believe Catholics worship the Pope; you may believe it with all your heart, mind, and soul. That will not change the fact that they don’t. That’s not to say you can’t disagree with various aspects of Catholicism or Mormonism. I have disagreements with both forms of Christianity myself, and there’s no way I’d convert to either one. That does not entitle me or you to spread falsehoods such as “Catholics worship the Pope” or “Mormons believe the Devil is equivalent to Jesus”. If you’re going to disagree with a denomination, please do so on factual grounds, not ones made up to slander a religion.
Does any of this make any sense to you or anyone else? It’s half past 3 in the morning, and I’m posting under the influence of insomnia, so I’m not entirely sure.
CJ
His4Ever, I do thank you for your replies. This one, however, troubled me more than others:
You cite scripture more than anyone else around here and place a greater weight on its exact words than almost active poster. In light of that and your past history, I’m having a hard time buying this. It may not have been conscious on your part, but if you’re using that particular verse from Paul as your justification for condemning “fornicators”, why are you overlooking the fact that it also condemns slanderers? As people have told you many, many times, what Jack Chick writes and the websited you have cited concerning the Catholic Church and what it is are slander, in that they are factually incorrect and intended to malign. If homosexuals cannot be true Christians because they fornicate, how can Jack Chick be one? I don’t require an answer to this, but I would like you to think about it.
There’s another thing which has bothered me for several months now, and which does make my opinion of you somewhat lower than perhaps it ought to be. You remember that train-wreck of a devotional you posted last December? The version you posted contained a one-sentence paragraph which stated that one who shows mercy is a traitor to Christ. I’ve pointed out that statement in arguing with you several times. I assume you agree with it, simply because you’ve never stated you disagree with it, and you haven’t shown mercy here yourself. If you disagree with it, tell me now. There’s no sin in being wrong. Lord knows I must have been wrong a million times, and I’ve still got half a lifetime to go. If you disagree with it, please let me know, and I will adjust my opinion of you accordingly. You see, as I understand the words and actions of Christ, if anything, refusing to show mercy is being a traitor to Him. Granted situations do vary, and the full version of that devotional made that a lot more clear, but the full version is not what you posted.
Look, I understand if you feel dazed and bombarded right now. Speaking for myself, I’ve tried gentler measures, but they haven’t worked. I’m not asking you to give up your faith or your church. I’m not asking you to not to “love and serve you [God] as faithful witnesses of Christ our Lord” as one of the closing prayers in my church puts it. I am asking you to look at the fruits of your witness and your words and consider the consequences of your actions. Reread what HJay wrote. He’s about as biased as you can get when it comes to me, but his point, I think, is valid. By the way, when I was devasted last year because I lost my job, he and his wife not only took me into their home for the weekend, they drove 60 miles round trip to do it. You couldn’t even spare an “I’m sorry it happened.” Tell me, whose behaviour was more Christian? By the way, HJay and I have spoken about you several times over the past year, and I can’t tell you how many times he has urged me to be merciful to you and helped me understand where you are coming from.
I do not hate you, and I understand believing what you’re taught. It cannot be easy to find out that some of that is a lie. Scripture and faith are strong, not to mention God. Your faith need not collapse because the hatred preached by some is exposed for what it is. Also, please keep in mind that if you feel attacked right now, when you say the things you have repeatedly said about Catholics and Mormons, you are attacking them. What you preach on this board differs greatly from what my take on Christianity tells me I must do. Have Polycarp or I said you’re not a Christian or that your church doesn’t preach true Christianity? By your actions alone, you appear to completely overlook Christ’s 2nd commandment, the one about loving your neighbor. By your habit of walking away when you are asked questions about what you believe, you appear to ignore part of Christ’s first commandment, which includes loving God with all your mind. By your hyperlegalistic approach, you appear to miss what I see as the whole point of Christ’s ministry, which is focusing on the spirit of the law given by God, not the nitpicking details imposed by man. By excusing your sins while condemning others, you go against the words of the Lord’s Prayer itself, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” I could use this to build an argument that your church does not practice or preach true Christianity, but I will assume that their hearts are with Jesus, though the actions of some of their members drive other even farther away from him.
By the way, sorry about the coding error in my last post. I also apologize for yet another mile-long post. I can do short ones, I swear!
CJ
Polycarp, I’m not ignoring, I’m offline a lot this week. Good point about counseling as a fellow religionist having more weight.
My main point still stands. The missionaries to the muslims this thread started to be about are NOT correligionist and show by their statements that they don’t even understand the basic tenets of the religions they’re trying to win converts from.
Which is what this thread continues to demonstrate, the continued failure of MOST individuals to be able to even have a civil discussion when religion is involved. And if you can’t talk to someone without insulting them (even unintentionally), trying to convert them is a joke.
Some of the fundies here are insulting the non-christians and the Catholics and Mormon they don’t consider christians, and some of the Mormons and Catholics are insulting the fundies back, and some of the atheist are chiming in with 'if your god did exist I’d still want kick him in the nads" and so on.
People just getting more and more entrenched to the point of self-parody.
Your statement re Jersey and H4E (et al) continuing to do what they think they must, regardless of any new info is exactly why fundies proselytizing to fundamentalist of either Christian or Muslim varieties seems very pointless to me and only leads to escalating feeling of persecution by both groups as they mutually refuse to listen to each other lest the purity of their beliefs be put in danger. Or something, but that’s what it looks like to me.
You are certainly an exception, and Siege, I just thought that was a great post and bore repeating.
Martyrdom is well and good, but there’s a lot of people out here who don’t have a jones on for it, and don’t want to get dragged into anyone’s holy wars. This is just a message board. Anyone really getting hurt here by H4E? She’s the posting equivalent OF a chick track. Read (optional, they repeat), admire the “pathetic art” quality of the illustrations, toss, move on. But what’s harmless here is very ungood in a war zone. I’m glad she isn’t a posting from Iraq.
The christian idiots she agrees with out proselytizing in occupied Iraq are doing their bit to fire up the muslim idiots calling for jihad because islam is under attack. It’s just too bad for everyone else when things go boom I guess.
Serious question. Is it EVER wrong to try to convert someone in the christian faith based on danger to them or to others? Anyone ever made a formal statement about this? (Bible, religious leader, etc) I know you’re supposed to not care if YOU get killed, but what about the people you’re trying to convert who haven’t converted yet? Bystanders you aren’t actually in the process of trying to convert? Their kids under the age of understanding your conversion message? What about if you’re relatively safe (making radio addresses, publishing material while living somewhere else), but they are in danger if they have your material where they live? Is this is any way considered immoral?
that question wasn’t actually specifically to Poly (tho he’s certainly welcome to answer), but to anyone who supports missions that are aggressively targeted to places where religion is a reason for violence, prison, etc.
Oh man I almost laughed up a mouth full of soda over that one.
Well here is some logic for ya, maybe they deleted it cuz it was stupid and irrelevant. I also remember you (well if it wasn’t you then you are a plagerizer) posting that same exact post in the pit a few months ago. I’m pretty sure your other account got banned for it too.
Been living under that bridge for long?
’ “Christianity is a mass murderer”. ’
Well, I believe there have been many wicked people who under the guise of religion have done many horrible things. Many of which give a bad name to Christians a bad name because of past events. I cant control that, what I can control is what people see through me. That hopefully being Christ. (meaning Christ-like in character). All I can say is I am sorry for some of those who have gone before and given such name to Christians and am/are trying to make up for it with my life. As for His and Jersey, Im proud that they take such an active stance for what they believe in, there are numerous people on this board who disagree with them and yet they still take an active stance on what they believe, not backing down, or compromising their faith. I know I am still a neophyte to this board but I will hopefully be able to do the same. We might have different ways of doing so, but I believe we are striving for the same cause.
Polycarp, interesting. One question friend. Do you believe and or follow the 10 commandments as found in the KJV, in Exodus. Doing so might help me further understand your spiritual walk and so as to have to worry about that question if ever we discuss such a matter in the future. 
God bless.
-Nomad
(ps you think i should go with the -nomad after i post or just get a sig?)
One taking an “active stance” for one’s faith doesn’t have to do so by telling lies about the faiths of others.
…have to not worry about…
btw the
…
was merely a devider between Polycarps and Snermys posts.