Game of Thrones 6.10 "The Winds of Winter" 6/26/16 [Show discussion]

Catching up:

Darth Cersei looks awesome. Not sexy, just awesome.

I think people are reading too much machination into Sansa. I think from her point of view, she is back home, her brother is King of the North, and she can now go about rebuilding Winterfell and helping to plan for the long winter. She has no ambitions to greater power that I can see - but she’s also not going to allow herself to be used and abused again. The look she shared with Littlefinger was more about her realisation that so long as he was around, it just isn’t going to be that easy. She knows his ambition, that he wants her, and that he’s capable of doing almost anything to get what he wants. I thought the look they shared was pretty chilling.

Arya has no idea that Jaime pushed Bran out the window, does she? If she did, he’d probably already be Frey-Food. It will be interesting to see who she goes after next. As for the face she used - I think I’ve learned from this season not to over-think things. She had a face. We don’t know where she got it. She probably has more. That doesn’t mean she murders people for them - maybe she just seeks out fresh corpses, of which Westeros has plenty.

Daeneris’s fleet: People are speculating as to where it’s going to land. Didn’t we already establish that it was going to stop over at the Iron Islands and help Yara overthrow Euron? I didn’t think the Iron Islanders were all going to help Daeneris take Westeros - more like she helps them take the Iron Islands first, and then she doesn’t have to worry about her flank as the rest of the fleet goes on to the mainland. Or maybe the fleet will split apart, as I wouldn’t think the Tyrells and the Dornish would be that interested in spilling blood and treasure for the Greyjoys.

As a guess, I’d say that the Greyjoys take back the Iron Islands, and then their armies will join with Jon and the other men of the North in fighting the walkers. Theon will argue for this after Sansa asks for his help. He still has a debt to pay to House Stark and the north in general. Heck, maybe he’ll wind up back at Winterfell eventually.

As for Littlefinger - he can fully believe in the White Walkers, but that won’t stop him from simply seeing them as another tool to be used to further his ambitions. But it’s hard to see how he can possibly carry out his plans now that winter has come. He needs to be thinking about getting his army back to the Vale and provisioned, or they are all going to die in the snow. Winter in Westeros can last years - even decades. You would think that people in the North especially would be focused on stockpiling food and wood and everything else they can get their hands on. All of which makes it really hard to provision armies and take them across a continent.

It will be interesting to see if any of these people end up married or paired up at the end. The obvious one is Jon Snow/Daeneris, which makes me think that might not happen. And what about Sansa? Her possible mates seem to be Littlefinger, Jon Snow, Tyrion Lannister… I’d love to see Tyrion and Daeneris ally with Jon and Sansa, and to have Tyrion wind up with Sansa. It makes sense - she has now seen enough true monsters in the world that she might find Tyrion’s dwarfism utterly irrelevant compared to his character.

We also have three sympathetic eunuchs (band name!) in the final mix - Grey Worm, Varys, and Theon. It will be interesting to see what happens to them. They are still hinting at a romance between Grey Worm and Missandei, and I’m not sure how that’s supposed to work out.

As for the Lannisters, it seems like there is not much left for them other than a tragic ending. They have no money, no allies, and a public that must despise them after Cersei’s stunt at the sept killed their religious leader and their more-beloved Queen. The only way she can rule now is through fear, and that requires a fiercely loyal army. Does she even have one? One she can actually pay?

Speaking of religious leaders - there have been a few posts questioning which Gods actually exist. I was always under the impression that the Old Gods are real, and that the Lord of Light is real, but that the ‘seven’ were just a political invention to keep the people in line. I don’t think we’ve ever seen any of the ‘seven’ do anything. But if they were real, they certainly didn’t do anything at all to stop the destruction of their holiest site and most of the leaders of the faith. So I think the evidence is even stronger that the official religion is the only one that’s not true.

It looked to me like the kid was intentionally luring Lancel to the tunnels. If that’s the case, it was probably part of Cersei’s plan to punish Lancel by showing him the threat but denying him time to prevent it. And if that’s the case, it’s just another example of how Cersei’s vindictive nature makes her a sub-par schemer. Sure, the plan went off as designed, but Lancel was a loose end who came very close to ruining everything.

Nah, I think she figured that once she got rid of the pernicious influence of Margaery and the high sparrow, Tommen would just fall in line and allow her to rule from behind the scenes as she used to do. She knew he’d be upset, but would eventually come around. After all, her and Jaime would be all he has left.

It sure looked like he was getting ready to rape her. I see no reason why he couldn’t still do that - every other part of him seems to work just fine. I suspect she was given to him as a reward - a plaything. He’ll repeatedly rape and torture her until Cersei is bored with the whole thing, then she’ll have her killed. Slowly.

I think the point is that this time it’s different - Robb Stark was not meant to be the King of the North. Jon Snow is. And this time the King isn’t going on a wild expedition to see revenge, but is organizing the north for a righteous battle to defend their homeland.

One of the themes of the serious has been that there were a lot of false or weak claimants to the throne - Viserys, Robert Baratheon, Robb Stark, Joffrey, Tommen, Cersei, Stannis. All of them greatly flawed. In the meantime, the people with the actual claim to the throne are Daeneris and Jon Snow, and they seem to be completely different kinds of people.

Won’t it suck if it turns out that Bran going back through the wall is the event that destroys its protective magic and allows the White Walkers to invade Westeros? Oops.

Nothing’s going to stop her, period. Euron’s fleet would be Dragon kindling very quickly.

Right. Which is why I didn’t claim it was leftover from the Battle of the Blackwater.

I think this was pretty clearly the weakest season of the show, which is a shame because it did so many things right. But there were far too many moments that just didn’t make sense, far to many scenes that required massive suspension of disbelief, or massive stupidity on the part of previously intelligent characters.

Fortunately, there was less of that this episode. I can only think of two main examples:
(1) Davos is going to kill Mellisandre. She convinces Jon Snow that she will be needed in the fight against the Night King. So he… banishes her to the south? Further away from the actual threat that she can aid them against? How about banishing her to the wall?

(2) The whole bit with Lancel, which was pretty clearly there purely to make things dramatic.
Overall, a wonderful episode.

(One comment about Littlefinger and Sansa: My assumption is that his plan was for Sansa to end up Queen in the North (in practice if not in name), and now he’s going to have to figure out how to salvage things. Which, fortunately, is what he’s best at.)

I thought the deal was that Dany would put Yara on the Iron Islands throne once she had conquered Westeros. She doesn’t have to worry about her flank very much given that the Tyrell forces are probably much stronger than the Lannisters, not having been whittled down in battle, and the Lannisters will have trouble just holding on to Kings Landing. (Incidentally, the last time we saw the Tyrell forces they were inside Kings Landing. Theoretically they could have been able to take over Kings Landing from within. But maybe they were withdrawn after Mace’s death.)

There is a question as to what happens to the fleet of 1000 ships Euron is building. Dany doesn’t need them, and has no interest in marrying Euron, especially since she’s agreed to help Yara and Theon get rid of him. It would seem that Euron’s only option would be an alliance with the Lannisters.

Ooh, Cersei you fucking bitch!

All of Westeros is between her fleet and the Iron Islands. You think they’re talking all those Dothraki (and their horses) the long way around?

I think the main thing that was lost was the twistiness of George RR Matin’s plotting. We kept expecting all these twists, because that’s what we’ve grown accustomed to on the show, but instead they’re just charging straight ahead with predictable TV plotting. Some of it was really, really good, but overall it lacked the nuance of Martin’s writing.

Jon doesn’t want to kill her, but he doesn’t want her anywhere near his men or the battle since she has a history of carrying out evil acts while being wrong. And yet, she did resurrect him and appears to be on the same side, so he was caught in a dilemma.

And to explain to the audience what was going on. This was a much better way of showing the audience what was happening than what you usually get from TV writing - it would have been easier and cheaper to just have Qyburn say to Pycelle, “Well, since you’re about to be dead anyway, let me explain in detail our horrible plan! Bwahahaha!”

Yeah, exactly. Orphaned Lady of Winterfell is worth much less to him than Queen of the North. So he’s already scheming his next moves, and that was what Sansa saw in him when they exchanged looks at the end. She knew that Littlefinger wasn’t about to allow a happy resolution that didn’t result in his getting what he wants.

But Pycelle tried to bring up the fact that Grand Maester such and such had been Hand of King Somebody in the past.

She was the serving girl that Bronn noticed giving Jaime the eye, no?

The show has been playing pretty fast and loose with distances and timing. But when Daeneris met the Greyjoys, didn’t they agree that she would provide ships to help them take back the Iron Islands? I don’t recall anything being said about the Iron Islanders having to help her retake Westeros first. But maybe I’m forgetting.

I think her vindictive nature did come back to haunt her when she decided to tease the septa instead of spending the time with Tommen.

And we are left with the question, how much of the prophesy is self-fulfilled …

We now know for sure that R + L = J, but is there anyone in the GoT world who shares that knowledge? Ned’s dead. What about the 2 midwives? Anyone else? If there’s no one alive who knows, then how does this change anything?

Now I regret that you started this topic, because I don’t think I would have seen it coming otherwise, and would have been puzzled by what was going on and totally surprised.
Wow! That was a great episode. For me the best of the series. I had only some minor reservations (like the Pycelle/prostitute scene that distracted from the drama of the moment, or the half-assed fate of the red woman). Lots of great scenes, a number of surprises, everything fell in place. Emotionally gripping, and it’s rare that a movie, serie, game, book, whatever touch me strongly on an emotional level. I didn’t expect it to be so good. And that they would manage to make so many great scenes in every story line (Littlefinger’s admission, the young Lady Mormont, Benjen hinting that he’s dead, and many others…even the scene in Dorne, of all things!)

I totally loved the opening of the episode (until Pycelle whore scene, again :mad: ).
Now we have a lot of icy cold women in charge : besides the Queen of ice Cersei, Danaerys pointed at her lack of emotion, Arya is a fully trained butcher, and I’m not even trusting Sansa anymore. Yara the hardened raider might be the most sentimental and likeable of the lot, now.

And winter is here.

Howland Reed knows. Bran knows. If Bran demonstrates his powers to the men of the North and then declares Jon Snow a Targaryen, I think that would be pretty decisive. Also, Jon may be able to prove it by either becoming a dragonrider or otherwise demonstrating Targaryan power.

Bran is hanging out with Meeren Reed. They may decide to go to her home and confront her father, since Bran knows that he knows as well. I think that’s all it would take.

It still begs the question as to what Lyranna whispered to young Ned. It seems strange that the producers wouldn’t let us hear that, since they revealed R+L = J anyway. Perhaps there is another aspect to the secret we don’t know yet.

Bran knows, Howland Reed knows if he’s still alive.

Bran knows. And he might be able to communicate his knowledge with others from afar or simply by joining up with his family.

I think, the important bit about the heritage is not his right to the throne - what does rightful mean anyway? - but the possibility that his blood allows him to control a dragon, which is vital to fight the ice and counter Daenerys unique power, if necessary.

Added: Damn, you both were quick!

I think I recall that. But IIRC they pretty much laughed at him, but probably because it was Pycelle.

Qyburn seems to be taking on multiple portfolios. At this point he seems to be functioning as Hand of the Queen, Grand Maester (although not technically a maester), and Master of Whisperers, although most posts on the Small Council are officially vacant.

Bran knows (which is how we found out), and he is going to either Winterfell or the Neck (Howland Reed’s holding), so someone else will certainly find out. There is really nowhere else it makes sense for Bran to go except possibly Castle Black, but I think it will be the Neck since they shouldn’t know that Sansa and Jon retook Winterfell, then to Winterfell after that since it has a sacred tree.

At about 0:40 in that video - the ships on the right-hand edge of the screen have the red sun on orange of Dorne - not the same colours as the red dragon on black of the Targaryens. I’ve checked on an HD copy of the episode and it definitely looks like a Dornish sun.