Inspired by this thread I’d like some input on your experience, especially from the male Dopers, on the conventional wisdom that a man only values what he has to work for, and how this plays out in the relationship area. I’m only interested in how this plays out in dating situations where you are looking to establish a longer term relationship…hit and runs obviously don’t come into play here.
I’ve been told, and the current buzz out there in articles and books and radio shows, is that a woman shouldn’t be too easy to “catch”, for lack of a better word. In my own situation, friends have told me that I’m just too nice and too easy, and that makes it too easy for a man to walk away from me. I don’t consciously play games. If I’m interested in a man and he asks me out, I go. If a guy calls and asks for a date and I’m not busy, I go. I’ve been told that this is wrong, wrong, wrong, and that I should be unavailable at times (even if I really have no plans) because then the man will a bit frustrated (if he’s really interested) at my unavailability, and then when I DO find the time to go out with him, he will be so pleased and feel that he has worked hard and won something he wants, that he will be my slave forever. I’m not even talking about sex here…just going out on a date.
I try to have a bit more respect for a man’s intelligence and motives. Am I wrong? I am always honest, and open, and (I think) easy to get to know and approach. If I’m interested, I show it. And I get dumped, generally in favor of women who are (to put not too fine a point on it) bitches that are demanding, capricious and in one case downright nasty to the men. A man always knows where he stands with me. I don’t think I’m over-eager…I’m not the type to be clingy and call someone a dozen times a day…and I have a full life and interests that keep me busy. But if I’m in a relationship I will make time for the relationship before other interests when possible (if you call and ask me to go out when I have a reception to cater, you will not see me cancelling the reception, but I may suggest seeing you after the reception, or on another day).
So how is it for you men? Given two women you like and who like you back, are you more intrigued by the one who does not make herself available to you? Do you wonder and obsess about where she is, and who she might be with,and what she’s doing? Does that make her more valuable to you? Are you willing to work harder to impress her? Is she the one who gets wooed, and gets gifts and calls? Are you on your best behavior around her for longer? And if you win her heart, are you more loyal to her because you had to work harder to get her? Or do you prefer a woman who doesn’t jerk you around like a puppet on a string?
This sounds like a reveral of the “Nice Guys Finish Last” thread.
Much like girls put guys into “Just Friends” and “Datable” buckets, men put women into “Datable” or “Bangable” buckets. Our concept of “Just Friends” is basically girls you want to have sex with but haven’t yet or are otherwise off limits.
If guys are leaving you for bitchy women, take a look at them. Are they hotter than you? Maybe these guys just want a piece of eye-candy and don’t care about how those women act.
And of course, what I tell everone - if ‘everyone’ is acting the same way, maybe the problem is not with ‘everyone’, maybe it’s you.
I despise games. If a girl has plans, say so. If it’s open, say so (unless she doesn’t want to go, then say so). It’s not very hard. There’s no game, there are no rules, it’s simply the truth. That flies in the face of what a lot of dating conventions tell you, and I hates it.
No, pretending to have plans when you don’t is stupid. 99% of the time, it will just send the message that you aren’t interested and he won’t call back. Because that’s what women who aren’t interested say when you call to ask them out. It’s true you should play it cool early on, though. For guys this is mandatory, but it applies to women as well. You don’t have to be aloof or play games, but just avoid coming across as clingy or desperate.
Note: if a guy finds you really attractive, you can pretty much do whatever you want.
No, in my opinion the women were not more desirable than me. And in the case of my ex-husband, he has told me that he now knows he made a mistake in leaving a “great, kind, sweet, caring, loving, sensible, generous” woman (his words, not mine)for the high maintenance, jealous, game-playing bitch who convinced him to neglect his children.
And let’s not make this about me, okay? I’ve gotten critcized in enough other threads, and you don’t know the whole stories. I just want to know if men only value things they have to work hard to get, in this respect.
I have never liked the hard to get woman. It makes me feel she isn’t interested in me and I usually just stop calling her.
I’m not too worried about the “too easy” thing. If we both want to have sex, I see no reason not to. I’ll call her again too.
If we are in an exclusive relationship, I expect exclusivity (and of course give it.) But other than that, whom she dates is as much her business as whom I date is mine.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the “no, I have plans” thing is effective with lots of guys, particularly the type of guys who would end up being your slave forever.
In my limited dating experience, I’ve always ended up the one who makes it obvious she wants to see me, and doesn’t make it too difficult to do so. This may be in part because I’m lazy, or it could be my egotism (Girl obviously likes me and wants to hang out with me again soon? She must be very intelligent and a great all-around person!) or it could just be attributed to small sample size, but it’s how it’s worked out for me. I don’t really mind if a girl is busy (and I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt if she says she is) but it has led before to me not seeing a girl for a second date. I had tried a couple of times to make a date with her, but in the meantime I went out with another girl a few times and ended up just wanting to see the new girl. (New girl was hotter though, so that may skew things.)
The one thing I absolutely will not put up with is flaking. Say you’re busy all you want, but if you make a date you better damn well keep it. It’s amazing how often girls will flake out. I’m sure it is legitmate sometimes, but most of the time it has to be some sort of game being played for some reason I can’t fathom. Maybe it “works” on lots of guys though, I definitely don’t claim to be representative of the entire male population.
Yes sure, playing certain types of games can get you certain guys. But then you are dating the type of guy who likes you to play games, and likely he is a game player too. Just be yourself, and you will attract the kind of people both in relationships and friendships, who you will be happy around and who will be happy around you.
Just as, certain foods that are bad for you probably seem like they taste better because of the exhiliration you get from breaking the taboo of eating them, a woman that is unavailable or plays other games might come across as “a better catch” or “mysterious” or whatever. All I can say is, men that go for that get what they deserve.
I agree with the other posters that say just be honest and casual. The only one thing I might limit is the degree of obvious differential in interest. If you like him a whole lot more than he likes you, don’t act clingy or needy. Just enjoy where a relationship naturally is, and it will progress organically to the next step on it’s own. If it’s not progressing then it’s not meant to at that point in time.
A year ago there was Bachelorette #1 and Bachelorette #2. Bachelorette #1 played hard to get, unavailable, busy at this moment, etc.
Bachelorette #2 now gets all my loving and cooking, Bachelorette #1 gets a poite “Howdy,” when I see her around town.
I’m 45 and don’t have time for games. If you want to spend time together getting to know me and letting me get to know you, great. If you don’t, I’ll go hang out with my buddies, do things on my own and find someone else to be with.
I’d echo pretty much what jackdavinci said. I would ask myself “how would I feel about having a relationship with a man I can play like a fiddle?” If you’re interested in the things that a man can do for you but not particularly interested in the man himself, there are a number of excellent techniques for snagging this kind of man. It’s quite a common sport.
But, if you would like to feel comfortable just hanging out with someone because you really connect at a visceral level, I would strongly recommend that you stick with the straight-shooter strategy. You’ll find that the guys who “get away” are really not your type anyway.
“Given two women you like and who like you back…” (bolding mine)
With the additional implication that they are available, that’s kind of a tall order at this stage in my life.
But, assuming all that’s in place, if someone plays hard to get, I will not try to get them. That kind of game-playing kinda runs at right angles to my thought processes.
Don’t play games. It’s pretty easy to spot and tells me you are a manipulative bitch that will cause big problems down the road if I put up with that now.
I do try to suss out if someone is naturally shy or inexperienced. One woman that became a very serious relationship, almost put me off until I realized that although she was 26, she was very inexperienced with the whole dating thing. She had had one couple year long boyfriend and that was about it. I realized instead of playing games, she was just nervous and inexperienced. When I figured out that context, what had seemed like playing hard to get games, was easily explainable.
One of the fastest ways to end a relationship with me. I value honesty and integrity and would not consider continuing a relationship with someone who showed me that I couldn’t trust them.
In general, I don’t like Game Playing. I think it’s part of that ‘honesty and integrity’ bit where I expect people to say what they mean and mean what they say. If you’re trying to manipulate me or decieve me, it certainly does not bode well for a long-term relationship.
Jesus. I ask for opinions on a simple question and I just keep getting people telling me I’m not attractive enough to keep a man! It’s not about me, people! I have to give personal examples, but I’m asking for other people’s opinions of the statement…not a critique of my romantic life.
And now, to give another personal example…I once asked my ex why the woman he dumped me for was so much more alluring to him than me, the woman who fell in love with him right away (and for the record, he asked me to marry him on the third date…I guess I was hot once!). Now this was a woman who was “dating” other guys at the same as she was dating my ex, sometimes making my ex wait until another guy left before he could come over. He would be in agony if she wouldn’t see him. He would get insanely jealous and drive around trying to find her if she went out on her own. Yes, he was disturbed! He would do anything for her. And he told me that all that agony over her playing hard to get just made him more determined to impress her so that she would pick him over all those other guys, because then he would feel like a better man because she chose him. (He’s always had some issues about being thought of as somehow less of a man because he’s only 5’3") He was never jealous of me, or concerned about where I was if I didn’t come home on time, because he knew I would never cheat on him because I “just wasn’t that kind of a woman”. Because he knew he could trust me, he knew he wouldn’t be proving anything to anyone by having me. But to get a woman like HER to commit to him…well, that just proved his manhood.
Which, in this case, agrees with the statement, that men only value things they have to work for.
Too easy? Too hard? Pthbbbbt. That’s just negotiation. If you’re ‘hard’ to get, and the other person wants you bad enough, they’ll go the course. If you’re easy to get, and the other person wants you bad enough, they’ll still go the course.
People are not trade goods, subject to supply, demand, and scarcity. Either you work well together, or you don’t. One girl was hard for me to get, but I got her - only to find out that we were seriously bad for each other. Sad, but bye-bye, and I hope she did better next time.
OTOH, I got my wife into bed on our first date, and 18 years later, she’s still my lover, my friend, my playmate, my partner, and mother to my children. Would I have valued her more if she’d made me wait? Unh-uh. Not possible. She is who she is, and her willingness to bed me right way has and had nothing to do with the way we fit together - It was just a nice start to something far larger and more important.
I am an extremely shy guy, and if I muster up the courage to ask a woman out and she says no, I don’t go back for another round of rejection. Maybe I would if the rejection was accompanied by some other form of encouragement like, “I have other obligations this weekend, but please ask me again”, I might do so. I say maybe because I haven’t actually received a rejection like that – so it’s all theoretical.
Women who play games are very attractive to men who play games. Which is fine I suppose. But if you fake it, you will end up with a game player. Which you don’t want. Seems like shooting yourself in the foot to me.
Just be you you are, and wait for the guy who appreciates that. Even if it takes longer, isn’t it worth it?