I am an alcoholic

[Dinsdale]

Please tell me these past few posts weren’t while sober. If so, I may have to encourage you to drink more!

The kids think was relevant to me. Mine were a little older when I stopped - maybe middle to high school. I remember how cute I thought it was that my toddlers could fetch me beers from the fridge! :rolleyes: But as they got older, I decided I didn’t want to set that sort of a role model for them - the guy who has to put away 6-8 beers, simply because it is a nice Sunday afternoon.

There is no single answer, man. Just try something you think will work for you, and if that doesn’t work, try something else. For example, when I was trying to moderate, I would drink a beer, then fill the can/bottle with water and drink that before having another beer. Filled me up and slowed me down. Maybe just say you’ll binge 1 weekend night instead of 2. Or as an experiment - see if you can attend a social gathering without drinking.

Another thing, you might want to try journaling. Just take a legal pad and commit to filling one side of a page before you go to sleep. Then the next night, read what you wrote the night before, then write another page. Might help you get a handle on how you feel about your drinking, and how you want to address it.

Try everything, and eventually you’ll land on what works for you.

[HMS_Irruncible]

Well, here is some interesting news, apparently I cannot control my drinking.

[cher3]

In the AA Big Book, one of the founders talks about alcoholism as an “allergy.” I’ve found that analogy to be helpful to some extent. If you’re allergic to, say, seafood, and you really, really love lobster, you might take a chance on it for a bit while the reaction is relatively mild. Then one day your throat closes up and you end up in the ER (if you’re lucky.) After that, you start to think very hard about whether that lobster is worth it or not.

What if you thought about alcohol the same way? It’s not scientifically accurate, but I find it interesting. It also helps me think about how other people treat alcoholics. “What do you mean you can’t have any strawberries? Come on, one can’t hurt, just this time.”

I think the reason AA meetings make new people thirsty is that they make them think about an eternity of not drinking. Really, it’s just supposed to help you get through that day. Forever is way too long to think about.

[HMS_Irruncible]

One analogy I’m working with is brain injury (which I think it is). When it happens it may or may not be reversible to some degree, but every day for the rest of your life you have to expect that your thinking apparatus could fail at any time, and plan accordingly. (I have no idea actually how to do that).

[cher3]

Well, if you prefer an injury analogy, maybe think of it more as gradually working your way up from a wheelchair, to crutches, to a cane and so forth. That knee may well be tricky for the rest of your life and you don’t put undue strain on it, but it can certainly get better than it is now.

Here’s a suggestion for the drive home after the meeting: Choose someone who is willing to give you his number, and ask him whether you can give him a call when you get home. Tell him exactly what the reason is: The liquor store is calling to you.

Really, though, as long as you are sitting on the sidelines and thinking about differences between your specific situation and everybody else in that meeting room, you really aren’t giving AA a chance. Most of the hard work is done one-on-one with someone who has been through the steps. Meetings alone aren’t strong enough medicine.

[sleestak]

@HMS_Irruncible

Who knows. Seriously, I don’t know. I’m kind of social phobic, so these group meetings kind of put me on edge. And either they are completely anonymous with no social context, or people know each other and there are some prior relationships going on. And then I have to pass a liquor store on the way home, there is topologically no way to avoid it. I don’t know. I can’t explain. There’s nothing to be gained in asking rational questions of a drunk.

Bolding mine.

As far as I can tell, a lot of alkies are just more complex Pavlovian dogs except, instead of salivating when a bell rings, they pick up a drink when the ‘wrong’ thought or emotion pops up.

Which is why you hear a lot of people in A.A. talk about triggers*. The triggers themselves might not be rational and the process of trigger –> action may not be rational, but they can be rationally understood.

I tend to think it worked, at least for me, something like this:

#1 Negative thought/feeling
#2 Desire to get rid of #1
#3 Prefrontal cortex says ‘Fuck it, I am tired’ and abdicates all responsibility
#4 Slee gets shitfaced

Of course, the longer I drank the more any negative thought or feeling would trigger the whole process.

I think A.A. and therapy work on steps 1,2 and 3 of the process I listed above. I believe that A.A. works for some people because it retrains the brain and, in effect, strengthens the decision making and moderating functions.

For #1, the steps in A.A., once you get there, make you confront your problems and deal with them. Once the problems are resolved, there are going to be fewer negative thoughts/feelings.

For #2, A.A. teaches that there is another option to deal with the negative thoughts/emotions. That is the whole go to a meeting/call your sponsor/talk to someone thing. It is retraining your conditioned response to negative thoughts to do something that isn’t destructive.

For #3, the process of making a list of people you have harmed and making amends, I believe, strengthens the areas of the brain that aren’t functioning all that well. This appears to be the prefrontal cortex and it is basically, imho, retraining your brain on actions/consequences. It teaches you to think things through and understand the consequences.

At least imho.

Slee

*Triggersappear to be in fashion these days.

[cher3]

Very well put.

Unfortunately, #1 for you right now is often “I really shouldn’t drink today.”

[Dinsdale]

@HMS_Irruncible

Well, here is some interesting news, apparently I cannot control my drinking.

Sorry man, but I call bullshit. You regularly have people other than yourself pouring food and drink down your gullet?

I’ll even give you credit that after the first couple of pops, you might be unable to control sliding on down the slope. But no one else is putting that first drink to your lips other than you. Controlling that might be incredibly difficult, but nothing you’ve said suggests you are incapable of controlling it should you care to.

But if you are going to go all helpless and cry that you can’t control it, you might as well put your faith in the hands of a mystical sky pixie and go the AA route.

[cher3]

Well, at least in AA, the sky pixie picks up the phone when you call.

[sleestak]

@Dinsdale

Sorry man, but I call bullshit. You regularly have people other than yourself pouring food and drink down your gullet?

I’ll even give you credit that after the first couple of pops, you might be unable to control sliding on down the slope. But no one else is putting that first drink to your lips other than you. Controlling that might be incredibly difficult, but nothing you’ve said suggests you are incapable of controlling it should you care to.

But if you are going to go all helpless and cry that you can’t control it, you might as well put your faith in the hands of a mystical sky pixie and go the AA route.

I find it interesting that I provide scientific studies showing that A.A. is effective. And I am an atheist. Yet, somehow I put my faith in the hands of sky pixies?

Additionally, you are wrong and could, quite possibly, get someone killed. Alcoholism kills people. HMS Irruncible has done experiments and found that he cannot control his drinking*. Yet you are going to claim he can just stop?

And you accuse others of believing in sky pixies? Really?

Slee

*Every time he starts the day saying “I won’t drink today” and drinks is just further proof what he is doing doesn’t work.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Dinsdale

I’ll even give you credit that after the first couple of pops, you might be unable to control sliding on down the slope. But no one else is putting that first drink to your lips other than you. Controlling that might be incredibly difficult, but nothing you’ve said suggests you are incapable of controlling it should you care to.

Well, maybe. What I regret are the consequences of drinking. I still am really attached to a good buzz from a quality rum. Evidently I haven’t truly committed to letting go of that. Instead I keep telling myself “this time I’ll be really careful now that I know how easily it goes sideways.”

Really, though, as long as you are sitting on the sidelines and thinking about differences between your specific situation and everybody else in that meeting room, you really aren’t giving AA a chance. Most of the hard work is done one-on-one with someone who has been through the steps. Meetings alone aren’t strong enough medicine.

I am starting to get that sense. I am just really hesitant to let new people into my life, especially sharing such a personal problem.

Tonight will be a sober night. I drank all my stock last night, and I’m too tired to drink anyway. So, back to day 1.

[Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge]

I think Dinsdale has a point. Self control is an issue here. I get it that people can’t control intake once they start. But having that first drink is a conscious choice. That may be against AA doctrine, but the majority of addicts and drinkers quit by just deciding not to drink or use anymore. They just don’t get any attention because they aren’t in AA or other rehab groups.

[Dinsdale]

[quote=“sleestak, post:310, topic:743859”]

Additionally, you are wrong and could, quite possibly, get someone killed. Alcoholism kills people. HMS Irruncible has done experiments and found that he cannot control his drinking*. Yet you are going to claim he can just stop?
[/QUOTE[

The US is full of a lot of fat, lazy, smokers and drinkers who cry about how they are incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions. Lots of weak ignorant folk out there. Which is fine. Anyone should take whatever actions they want. Or drink themselves to death. No skin off my nose.

Every time he starts the day saying “I won’t drink today” and drinks is just further proof what he is doing doesn’t work.

I agree. Don’t see how I ever suggested that he continue what he has been doing. At least one possibility - as suggested by his last post, is that he hasn’t really “committed” himself to taking whatever steps are needed to change his situation. Instead, he’s in that familiar situation where he is lying to himself, and happy to keep making the same mistake over and over.

Further, he tried AA and says it doesn’t work. Sounds like you might be the one urging him to repeat what he has already found not to work.

[cher3]

Sitting in on a few meetings is not even close to having “tried AA.” You can’t pass the class if you don’t do the reading or the homework.

[Emiliana]

@Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge

I think Dinsdale has a point. Self control is an issue here. I get it that people can’t control intake once they start. But having that first drink is a conscious choice. That may be against AA doctrine, but the majority of addicts and drinkers quit by just deciding not to drink or use anymore. They just don’t get any attention because they aren’t in AA or other rehab groups.

AA certainly views the first drink as a conscious choice–what else could it be? An alcoholic most definitely has control over the first drink–to have it or not. It’s what comes after the first drink that he or she can’t control.

Sober alcoholics, in AA or not, decide not to drink. No magic involved. Why do you imagine AA claims anything to the contrary?

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Dinsdale

At least one possibility - as suggested by his last post, is that he hasn’t really “committed” himself to taking whatever steps are needed to change his situation. Instead, he’s in that familiar situation where he is lying to himself, and happy to keep making the same mistake over and over.

“Happy” would be a bit of an overstatement.

Further, he tried AA and says it doesn’t work. Sounds like you might be the one urging him to repeat what he has already found not to work.

2 visits is not really a fair trial. The jury is still out on that. Although I haven’t been able to let my guard down, it has been really educational to hear people describe same broken thought processes I have, and the serious legal, medical, and social consequences that they lead to. But then I hear someone talk about having 35 years sober and still wanting to drink, and it seems impossible to imagine right now.

But I know it’s possible. I quit drinking for 2 years when my kids were born. Coincidentally, work was going well, I was running 10K races, & cetera. I just have to figure out how to get back into that headspace.

[Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge]

@Emiliana

AA certainly views the first drink as a conscious choice–what else could it be? An alcoholic most definitely has control over the first drink–to have it or not. It’s what comes after the first drink that he or she can’t control.

Sober alcoholics, in AA or not, decide not to drink. No magic involved. Why do you imagine AA claims anything to the contrary?

It seems that most of the AA proponents I have come across, both in person and online, believe wholeheartedly in the disease model of addiction. This model seems to lessen personal responsibility. Doesn’t AA believe that relapse is part of recovery? To me a relapse would be failure. Something didn’t work and needs changing.

Willpower and personal responsibility have to be part of it, in my opinion. We aren’t totally powerless.

HMS himself has said he isn’t sure he is ready to give up the pleasure he gets from drinking. When the consequences of drinking outweigh the benefits, he may change his behavior. So far it doesn’t seem they have.

[Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge]

@HMS_Irruncible

But I know it’s possible. I quit drinking for 2 years when my kids were born. Coincidentally, work was going well, I was running 10K races, & cetera. I just have to figure out how to get back into that headspace.

Why not join a running group? Get your mind on something new. If you have a running group counting on you to show up Friday morning or whenever, that could help prevent you from drinking Thursday night. In my issues with binge drinking, this sort of accountability has helped. I don’t want to let others down who are counting on me to do something.

For example, tonight would be a great night to go out to the bars and drink my ass off and have a fun night. But I am playing basketball in the morning at 9 a.m. If I cancel or show up hungover, I screw it up for the others. Hence, I purposely schedule games early on Saturday mornings. It works for me, mostly.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge

It seems that most of the AA proponents I have come across, both in person and online, believe wholeheartedly in the disease model of addiction. This model seems to lessen personal responsibility. Doesn’t AA believe that relapse is part of recovery? To me a relapse would be failure. Something didn’t work and needs changing.

This is why I prefer the injury metaphor to the disease metaphor. If you’ve injured yourself, you go to therapy and retrain until you function. Maybe that means making the body part stronger or just finding ways of living with the injury. Sometimes you fail, but failure is an inherent part of change.

Why not join a running group? Get your mind on something new. If you have a running group counting on you to show up Friday morning or whenever, that could help prevent you from drinking Thursday night. In my issues with binge drinking, this sort of accountability has helped. I don’t want to let others down who are counting on me to do something.

The accountability idea is good. I actually quit running because I had developed some back problems. Come to think of it, that’s about the time I started drinking. Maybe I can ease back into running or find some other thing.

[Dinsdale]

@Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge

Why not join a running group? Get your mind on something new. If you have a running group counting on you to show up Friday morning or whenever, that could help prevent you from drinking Thursday night.

Yeah - my sobriety happened to coincide with my training for a marathon. Tho I quit months before the long weekend runs, those would certainly make you think twice about tying one on the night before.

People generally impress me with what they are capable of, should they choose to try. Different approaches work for different folk. I’m not terribly impressed with purported helplessness (not saying anyone or any organization in this thread has urged such a perspective.)