I am an emotional wreck - (Warning Long and TMI)

First of all I’d like to say that writing this is difficult for me. I’ve never been one to contribute to other’s “problem” threads and I think that’s probably a symptom of the troubles I’m having.

Where to start?

Some of you know that my wife and I have been separated for a few months. Obviously this in itself has been very hard on both of us. We have been in communication with each other, but this has generated not only understanding but confusion as well. One thing I’ve come to understand recently is an issue I have around trust. In all of our conversations, I have isolated what I’ve been feeling and thinking and pointing it all at her. I’ve not really shared anything with anyone else. Not my family, not my friends, not any professionals. On the other hand, Alice attends support groups and talks to her sisters and her friends about everything that’s going on with us. This has created a major imbalance in how we are both dealing with this.

So I am writing this in an attempt to reach out, to test my “trust legs”, so to speak. And let me tell you, I’m scared as hell. But I’m pretty sure I can trust my fellow Dopers. Besides, I really have nothing to lose.

Here goes (brace yourselves)…

The problems we are having, I think, can be boiled down to one over riding thing. Sexual identity. I knew long before we got married that Alice was bisexual. She never made that a secret. At first I was concerned, but as I though about it, and thought about how much she meant to me, I decided that it was something that wouldn’t be a wall between us. And for a great deal, it wasn’t. Before we were married, we had gone through a few spells where it arose - her trouble identifying as a girlfriend or a wife or reconciling it with her sexual identity. We talked about it and usually came to some sort or clarity or enlightenment.
But before I go on, I don’t want anyone to think that this is entirely an “Alice” problem. I was (and still am) struggling with my own issues as it relates to sexuality. I had suffered some sexual trauma as a child, and this has clouded a great many relationships that I’ve been in (this is also probably an indication why “trust” is a big issue for me).
So when Alice would bring up problems she was having, the fact that I had major issues as well didn’t make for a smooth meeting of issues, if you see what I mean. Both her issues and mine lead to a breakdown in communication, openness and intimacy.
Usually the clarity we would come to would be that we needed to do something to make sure the issue wouldn’t arise again. And we never did. Why? I don’t know. In fact, this phrase has come up several times in our conversations - “what were we waiting for?” and the only thing I could ever think of is “I don’t know”. This has been a constant in my life that I am not proud of. Why didn’t you do better in school? I don’t know. Why didn’t you go for the job you wanted instead the one you could get easily? I don’t know. Why didn’t you do something about your financial troubles? I don’t know.

Now the only thing I do know is that I want to know.

Meanwhile back at the ranch …
My emotional well-being is precarious … Another issue that I recently realized that has arisen between us is Co-dependency vs. Selfishness. That’s a huge span to get over. Whenever I tell Alice that she means more to me than anything and that I’m willing to fight for our relationship, she perceives that as completely co-dependent and unhealthy. Conversely, when ever she says to me that she just wants to make sure that we are both treating ourselves fairly, regardless of whether or not we are together, and it might be better if we let go and move on, I perceive it as fatalistic and unhealthy. I have a hard time seeing why our relationship should be sacrificed, and she has a hard time seeing why we should attempt a compromise. Bringing these two views together is Herculean, but I can only hope it’s possible.

I’m beating a little around the generalizing bush. I’d like to talk about the latest rash if insecurities that came up for me.

We had had a conversation that didn’t go too well. Later, Alice called me in tears telling me she felt like a total hard-ass and she wasn’t intentionally trying to hurt me. I appreciated that and felt bad that that’s the way the conversation ended. We agreed that while we couldn’t be laying heavy shit on each other constantly, we shouldn’t hesitate to talk if we felt it was important.
A few days later, when she was helping me move - I was using her phone to make a call and in an attempt to find the redial, I ran across the phone number of an old girlfriend of hers. I mentioned it and she assured me there was nothing between them anymore. And I believed her. However, my own insecurities lead that to gnaw on me.
I wrote her an email asking her if her feelings for an old relationship had anything to do with our separation. She assured me again that they didn’t (but that they had talked from time to time as friends) - and I felt like a shit for asking.
In that same letter, I asked her what she thought we might accomplish through mutual therapy. More to the point, I wanted to know if she suggested therapy together as a way to merely soften the blow in asking for a divorce.
Her response was very in depth and sounded pretty damn final, including her admission that my “softening the blow” theory wasn’t entirely excluded from her thinking. The letter was fraught with phrases like “moving on” and “I don’t want to stand in each other’s way”. I was devastated.

That was what led me to ask for another face to face. We got together and had a really good talk where I laid out all my feelings and fears in a much more coherent way than I’ve ever done before. I felt good after we talked.
Mere hours later, my insecurities came rushing back, and all I could think of is how much “moving on” would hurt.
I am not prepared to be without her in my life. She seems to be very prepared not to have me in hers. Actually, that is too cut and dried, but when I think of this I come close to breaking down completely.
I spend my days constantly on the verge of tears. I’m having trouble eating and sleeping and my work is suffering. I need to find perspective and clarity, but I am overwhelmed with the feeling that the most important commitment I have ever made is falling apart. I don’t want Alice to be unhappy. I don’t want to be unhappy. But I don’t want to be without her. I am truly troubled by all of this. My next step is professional therapy, as soon as possible, but I don’t know whether it will be by myself or with Alice. We have both expressed openness to either situation.
So there are my troubles in a nutshell. I welcome any and all advice or support from whomever feels secure enough with themselves to offer it.

Just a few more things…
1 - If you read this and you’d like to say something constructive to me - I welcome it.
2 - If you read this and you think I’m a big pussy and you hate TMI threads - tough shit. I wrote it, I posted it, I am prepared to deal with it. You may as well not post negatively, because it will just be ignored.
3 - If you really want to email me, my email address in my profile is good but it’s easier to get to me through Snotmail - m_slowik@hotmail.com.
4 - Go easy on the {{{{ }}}}'s. Those things freak me out.

Thanks in advance to everybody. Believe it or not, I am hanging in there as best as I can. I hope this “trust” deal works out.

Jack, I’ll keep it short and sweet.

Go with counseling. An uninvolved, third-party can be a godsend in helping you sort out the emotions and can see things you may not.

No huggies, just know that I’m prayin’ for you and Alice. It doesn’t sound like it’s an easy time that you are going through at all.

Yep, counseling. I think that’s the best way to deal with your situation, regardless of the outcome.

Honestly, talking to professionals who know exactly when to hum and aah is wonderful. Truly wonderful.

I also think you should know that you did the right thing sharing with us. It’s great to be able to vent to people who really do care, but who you don’t have to see face to face everyday. Hang in there.

One of the great things about therapy is that they are legally obliged to keep your secrets. You are not specific about what type of trust you have trouble with but maybe this will help?

Ummm, this admission may result my membership in the Girls’ Club revoked, but one of the problems here might be that she’s talking to her friends. Before you think about that statement too much, let me try to explain. Normally talking to your friends is a good thing, but when women complain, other women add to their chorus, because we think we’re being supportive. This can be good when it’s a man who deserves to get his ass dumped, but in this instance, Alice might just need someone other than you telling her to give the relationship another try. Alice might need someone like a therapist to tell her that she should think about staying with you. Of course, you can’t guarantee that the therapist will say that, but if you are getting marriage counseling rather than divorce counseling it might be worth a try.

I’m sorry to hear she’s mistaking love for co-dependence. I hope things get better for you. I’m not a hugger, but here’s a small, nervous pat on the shoulder. <pat>

Wow.

That’s rough, being in Limbo-land.

Get thy butt to a counselor sooner rather than later. Clean breaks may suck ass, but (and trust me on this) dirty breaks are MUCH worse. You guys need to figure this out and soon.

I’m sorry to hear this Jack, I hope it turns out well.

{Jack

That was a guy hug.

No hugs-in-brackets things from me, so don’t worry there. Those things freak me out too.

First off, I have to say that I am pretty impressed with your candor and the trust you are showing in us by posting this. This can’t have been easy to do. I know I probably wouldn’t have the guts to do it. You should view this step as a sign that you are going the right direction. To paraphrase Lucy from Peanuts, “the fact that you are looking for help indicates that you are not too far gone.”

I hope you can find the counseling arrangement that works best for the both of you, but in the meantime we are always here for you. Sure, we can’t do much more than listen if you need to vent, provide good vibes, or failing that drop in bad one-liners now and again. But like Soda said, it’s nice to have the option to unburden your soul to people you don’t have to see everyday.

Like you, I usually avoid the TMI threads. I’m pretty bad at offering support, so take everything I said above with a grain of salt (heck, that’s a good rule of thumb to use when reading all my posts). But you’re one of the people I like around here, so I had to pop in and offer what I could, even if it is only to say “hang in there.”

I’ll work on sending good vibes your way.

First of all. Kudos to you for putting your heart out on the ledge and posting here. Even, if none of use have the answers, writing it out and discussing it with us folks that are not a part of the situation will help you clear out your head of the negative, and hopefully replace them with some positives. Big time kudos to you for taking such a huge step.

I agree with the chorus. Look into therapy. Both just by yourself and with Alice. This will help you improve yourself, and find out about the issues you are having in your relationship.
Also, remember going to therapy is a relationship. You have to like the person you are seeing. If you don’t feel comfortable with the first person, ask to see someone different. You need to feel comfortable in the relationship.

Good luck to you. Great job in putting yourself out there.

pat

**
I don’t know if it will be of any help or comfort for you to know that I’ve been exactly there, but I have.

A few things I can tell you from my perspective that you may find of assistance:

  • You can move heaven and earth, but if the other part to the partnership isn’t as committed, or is heading in another direction, it can still not work.

  • When you feel like you can’t get past it, you can. When you feel like the pain is always going to be that profound and never go away, it will. It just happens. But it takes a lot of time, and a lot of working things out, both couple-wise and within yourself, for yourself.

Some people take their marital vows more deeply to heart than others. I was one of those people. Ending it was the wrongest-feeling thing I’d ever done – even when faced with the brutally obvious reality that it was a necessary thing.

If you think therapy would be a help for you, by all means pursue it.

Personally, I think co-dependance has taken a bad rap. I like feeling like I don’t want to live my life without someone else. I aspire to feel that way again.

Hang in there, Jack. It’s rough, but it gets better. Part of you will always be sensitive about it, but part of you comes out … I don’t know. Stronger. Forged. Not in a cold way, either. In a positive way.

Basically what Milossarian just said. I’ve been there too, Jack, as you know, and I can’t put it any better than Milo. The only advice I can give: fight the urge to continually call her and ask her about the state of the relationship. It’s not gonna change anything and it’ll freak her out. Going through a breakup (if that’s what happens) is one of the most gut-wrenching things you’ll have to endure, but it honestly does get better with time.
On a more positive note, counseling might be just what it takes to resolve things. Definitely try it.
Anyway, I’m sorry to hear about all of this. Maybe we can go out for a drink sometime (depending on where it is you’ve moved). Hang in there and take care of yourself. I know it’s impossible to see life as anything but torture right now, but it won’t always be that way (I’m repeating myself now; I’m bad at consolation). No need to beat yourself up so much, either - really, there’s no point in blaming anyone for these things. Just try to deal with fixing it. Good luck, amigo.

I’m so sorry Jack. This is a rough thing to go through. I agree that you should see a therapist - even if the marriage doesn’t work

Some points:

Speaking from experience - this wouldn’t have worked anyway. What happens is you make rules to make sure a certain issue doesn’t arise again, and it will come back in just different enough that it gets around the rule, and you still have a problem. Instead, you need to learn how to deal with the issue, not avoid it. Then, when it comes up again in a new guise, you will have skills that will help you deal with it again. Avoiding problems is never the answer

Should’ves, Would’ves, Could’ves. Didn’t someone have a couplet about that? Dwelling on past actions which you can’t change doesn’t help anything, and saps your emotional energy, leaving you too weak to fight the battles you need to right now. Try this - instead of saying “Why didn’t I”, say “Well, I didn’t, so what can I do now to improve things” Also, you may want to look into ADD literature.

Don’t. You are right and she is wrong. Researchers found they could predict with 80% accuracy whether a relationship would succeed or fail based on the language that the couple used to describe the relationship. She is talking just like my ex always talked when we had an argument - he admitted after the divorce that he should have had more faith in the relationship.

Relationships don’t just happen - they take work daily to succeed. As long as she is not willing to work on a relationship, all of her relationships will fail.

Milo said - “I think co-dependance has taken a bad rap.”

Actually, co-dependence has been overextended. Co-dependence is where a couple has unhealthy ties, i.e. a woman who marries an alcoholic because his illness allows her to feel superior and needed. Two people who love each other and know their life would not be as happy or rewarding without the other one are NOT co-dependent.

The diagnosis of co-dependency, like schizophrenia, should be left to a mental health professional.

i also agree with the therapy advise. i will be sending positive vibes your way.

I wanted to just slip back in here and tell you all how overwhelmed I am with your responses here, and those of you who emailed me. Thank you, really.
This is whole situation is very hard for me but I feel a little better having gotten some of this of my chest, and having recieved some impartial input.

I have more to say in gratitude and just to comment, but I want to get out of here and get home. If the kick-and-play computer isn’t being a total pain in the ass at home, I will get back to you.

Thanks again. Sincerely.

The psychiatrist Peter Kramer, author of Listening to Prozac wrote a book titled Should You Leave? on the subject of couples therapy and people who are trying to decide whether to stay in a relationship or not. It’s well written, doesn’t offer a glib thesis, and might be a good resource for you. Good luck & God bless.

Hi. It’s me again. The Central Scrutinizer.
[sub]Sorry, I got a little Zappa on the brain[/sub]

Thanks to all who have encouraged the therapy angle. I have probably know for years that this is something I need. The whole rigamarole I’m going through is like a big conk on the head for me.

As for the Co-dependence issue - that kind of arrived through the back door. Alice had at least one very negative relationship that was mired in co-dependence, where she was the co-depender. It was very destructive to her, and I think she’s guarding against from the other side. I’ve communicated this to her and she says she sees my point. That was part of the good conversation we had. I don’t know if it changed her mind about anything, but at least it’s on the table.

Clearing up what I said about my issues around trust: It came up from something that Alice said to me - made me realize. The night before I talked to her, we were on the phone to work out where to meet and such, and I was very emotional. I said something like, “I need to talk to someone and right now you’re the only person within 3000 miles who I completely trust.”
This did not sit well with her. When we got together the next day, she told me how much pressure that was on her. And the fact that everytime I felt I needed to talk, if I just burdened us both with everything, we’d go on emotional overload. Somewhere in the conversation she said, “There are people you can trust, friends, family, professionals, what about your board? If you can’t learn to trust others what does that say about you. I want you to trust people.” And that hit me like a load of bricks. I cried like a little kid. When she asked me why that upset me so much, I said it’s like someone telling you you’ve got a 4 foot horn growing out of your forehead that you never noticed before. All the feelings of mistrust that arose from my childhood just came rushing at me, and I hated them. I mean I hated them with all my being.
I was pissed that I had never seen this in myself so much as to do something about it.

I think I misrepresented myself there. We didn’t want to find a way around the problem. We wanted to do just what you said - find a way to deal with the problem if it ever arose again. But we got stuck. If something happened to make us wonder about our relationship, we’d talk until we puked coat-hangers, then agree that we should seek counseling. But we never did. Probably because slowly our intimacy would regain itself and all of a sudden we’d feel comfortable.

Advice well taken. But I was trying to illustrate that I see a pattern in my life that I’m not willing to let take over again. Not that everything else was so unimportant, but I’m beginning to understand the consequences of my non-action. I’ve never thought of the ADD angle before - I’ll look into it.

I’d like to say I agree with you completely, but I don’t know if I can. There is a lot to everything that’s going on with us. Most of it I’ve told you. Some of it I have not (in an effort to try to respect her privacy) - but all in all, sometimes there are bigger things affecting us. I’m not saying that I don’t want her to work on our relationship along with me or that I don’t think she is capable of that, that’s light years form the truth. I do. I’m just saying, … hell I don’t know what I’m saying. I do agree with you, I wish she did to.

woodstockbirdybird - I could use a drink! I’m in Oakland now - in a warehouse loft about four blocks from the Fruitvale BART. I think you might still have my cell number (and vice versa).

Hey Jack… you’ve been party to the state of disaster that is my life, so I won’t make you humor me and listen to my advice. :wink:

Just wanted to say I was thinking of you and Alice and hope that what is right is what comes to be. You know where to find me if you wanna talk.

Keep your head up.

Hi Jack, No hugs from me either but I want to say “hang in there buddy”. I’m sending lots of postive feelings your way.

Your grief and emotional pain are almost palpable. I’ve never been in your exact situation but I have gone through the grieving process more times than I care to remember. I know how it feels to be confused and hurt. Definitly go to therapy–couples therapy if she will but go alone if she won’t. It’s not a big deal. It just helps to have an impartial 3rd person give their input.

If the problem as you see it is her sexuality then, I hate to say it but, it’s your problem not hers. You cannot change another’s point of view or orientation, you can only change the way you deal with it.

While I think it’s kinda unfair for her to start labeling you as “co-dependant” or anything else, she is right in saying you are responsible for your own mental health. She can’t make you happy, you have to do that for yourself.

Go to therapy, get another opinion from someone in possession of all the facts. Keep us updated.

:very quick hug with back pat:

Well, speaking for the rest of the regiment;

I think we all ought to drag Jack out to some good old fashioned watering hole and basically booze his brains out. This weekend is a wash with Mother’s Day et al, so I’m recommending we rally round the flagpole on the 19[sup]th[/sup] of May somewhere near the Cal Train station in San Francisco. There’s just nothing like massive quantities of alcohol to bring out the best in people…

If fact, there’s even a dim sum joint somewhere near the Moscone Center where we could drown Herr Batty in his favorite BBQ pork snowballs (Char Sui Bao)

I can’t offer you any more advice, or more anecdotes, or even profound observations.

I just wanted to say that I read your post and really hope things work out for you. That was quite the heart-outpour and it really got to me.

I thought I’d let you know that I’ll probably be thinking of you and Alice at random times from now on. Good luck.

Are you still up for Bay To Breakers, Jack? You can forget about your troubles by baking your brains out in the hot sun.