I think the phrase “one who is evil” pretty much applies to any “one who is evil.” I figure Jesus probably didn’t intend for **Wildest Bill[/] to decide when and if to use his suggestions. He intended this as instruction for EVERY case. Please see other quotes from the Bible posted by pullykamel.
And please take a hint from picmr. People are upset and horrified at these tragedies. The last thing we need to hear are your off the cuff, near-sighted, idiotic suggestions of vengeance. People would like to be able to have discussions about this rationally. People are already struggling with angry, vengeful thoughts and don’t need you to add to their difficulties in dealing with them.
The reason I did this has nothing to do with the tragedy at hand. It was only that Wild Bill claimed he would retract his statement if anyone could come up with evidence in the bible that we shouldn’t torture our enemies. We confronted him with much evidence that the bible says exactly that, and he still refuses to recant.
I don’t consider myself a Christian and wasn’t suggesting that “turning the other cheek” was the right course of action. However, as a Christian, Bill should follow the words of Christ, no?
Wildest Bill - I understand what you are saying; that is the standard argument for pro-capital punishment Christians. And mine is the standard argument for anti-capital punishment Christians.
What I do not understand is how logically this works out. It doesn’t seem to follow for me. Let’s distill the argument a bit.
Let’s say you have 10 Christians who completely believe in the teachings of Jesus…in turning the other cheek, in responding to evil with good. They form a government. If you believe these teachings with every moral fiber in your being, how can you then form a government that goes against this, believes in torturing criminals and seeking absolute revenge? To me it doesn’t follow. I just don’t see 10 honest Christians using the government as a loophole in religious doctrine as an instrument in revenge.
I am not saying we should do nothing…no, no, no. Do not misunderstand me. I believe in justice; I just do not believe that torture falls under the wing of that ideal.
Let me ask this question then to the people that do like this suggestion.
What would you suggest the terrorist punishment be?
The only reason I brought this up is because I know these wackos aren’t afraid to die. Punishments are hopefully designed to deter crime. So prison won’t work. Reletively painless executions won’t work. So I was thinking a severe painful death might get their attention.
Let’s face it all what we have done in the past is NOT working. So please give your suggestions since ya’ll think mine suck so much let me hear yours.
Phlosphr … non-Christian infidel? Damn, man, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
That was a sickeningly pretentious and thoughtless thing to say to people who are trying to make a point about dealing with others’ crimes JUSTLY - wether it be in the face of God or show our righteousness and true place as a great country to the world in these dark times.
OH OK!! Sexywriter, I see. I miss understood, I thought the sentiment was turn the other cheek.
I think we are all on edge, I think the country is feeling dual sentiment, sadness and rage. These are formidable emotions, and should be as tame as possible.
OH OK!! Sexywriter, I see. I miss understood, I thought the sentiment was turn the other cheek.
I think we are all on edge, I think the country is feeling dual sentiment, sadness and rage. These are formidable emotions, and should be as tame as possible.
Your ramblings are incoherent at the best of times, but you’ve really outdone yourself on this one. First, you express ideas that are an abomination to many Christians and non-Christians alike. Then you say:
Then, when someone provides a Biblical quotation that demonstrates fairly well the notion of mercy towards the evil (which would seem to rule out torturing criminals), you move away from your (so-called) Christian argument and say:
Instead of tortuous attempts to back up your ideas with some sort of Biblical or juridical authority, why not just be honest and say “Hey, everyone, i crave blood on this issue and i think that all of the principles that govern our existence should be thrown out the window”. Some people would agree with you, while the majority probably would not, but at least you would be presenting your views as they really appear from this thread.
And Phlosphr wrote:
Well, first of all, people quoted passages from the Bible because Wildest Bill asked for them. Is that such a difficult chain of events to understand?
And your argument that Christian values should not apply to the treatment of non-Christians is about the most unChristian thing i’ve ever seen in writing. Personally, i’m an atheist, but of all the true Christians i know, not one would contend that Christian ideals should be abandoned when dealing with “infidels”. And i think you do genuine Christians a great disservice by suggesting otherwise.
GORDON I agree with you man! What are you trying say? How on earth is the statement ‘non-christian infidel’ the pot calling the kettle black?
mhendo
I am forced to agree with you. I wrote that in haste. I am completely saddened and enraged at this calamity. This is the most horrible event I have ever heard of on American soil. I am also a little frustated that I can not be with members of my family on the east coast right now. I am on the west coast and stuck as you can imagine.
After reading a few of the incidents listed, perhaps you can come back and explain why you would like to count yourself among the monsters who carried out the actions described.
Wildest Bill. I continue to be astonished by the level of stupidity emerging from the ashes of this latest disaster. Since this is not the Pit, I will refrain from using the strongest words to describe the level of ignorance you have demonstrated.
We are better than that. We are not animals. Our citizens are free, wealthy, and happy because their basic rights are protected in our unique system of government. We’ve been successful. Our civilization has grown and thrived on the foundations of these freedoms while cultures around the world have stagnated and decayed with long histories or oppression and degradation.* This is in part why so many of the world’s people hate our way of life, lining up at our embassies seeking asylum on the one hand, and attacking us on the other.
Even our prisoners are afforded basic rights and protections. Our Constitution prohibits their cruel and unusual punishment. I am in favor of the death penalty. I am also in favor of due process. We do not yet know the whole story, or all parties involved. When the perpetrators are discovered, they will be met with righteous vengeance. Whether that’s in a court of law or at the hands of our military forces has yet to be determined.
Torture is the tool of madmen and fools.
[sub]* Spare me the jive talk about how the US has “caused” the problems in the Middle East.[/sub]
Please tell me how you associate executing these terrorists painfully for killing thousands of innocent people to what is on that site. I don’t get it.
Evilhanz,
First,
I am glad this is not the pit. Secondly we are dealing with savage animals. So maybe all they understand is savage treatment.
Like I said they have not slowed down any from things we have done in the past or present. And I have heard they are planning many new attacks on the innocent in America. So don’t you think we need to do something drastic to show them not to screw with us anymore? Because what we have been doing ain’t cutting it my friend. And who knows next time it could be loved ones of ours.
The moral arguments behind your ideas are reprehensible and deserve no comment.
But even the more “practical” aspect of your argument is unbelievably naive and illogical.
These terrorists could be described in many ways - evil, fanatics, crazy, committed - but they were also highly organized and efficient, as we all found out to our horror on Tuesday. These were people who were prepared to move countries, set up a new life, spend weeks or months training to fly a plane, threaten the passengers with knives, and then fly the plane into the side of a building, killing thousands as well as themselves. That level of commitment is not going to be deterred by some barbaric torture designed for the pleasure of blood-thirsty hypocrites.
Nostradamus and others, I think you mistake controversial for confrontational.
I’ve witnessed many a thread (possibly not in this forum) along this vein with regard to child molesters, rapists, and abusers of all sorts. Generally there is a whole bunch of increasingly vile responses.
Bill posted an idea, vile and evil though it may be, it is still something wonderful; an idea.
Here is the key:
Sometimes its nice to fantasize, that is what I see Bill’s post as being. Nothing more. Unless I am mistaken Bill does not hold a policy making position in our Federal Government, and therefore