I rebuke you in the name of Jesus, Lord and Savior of the world.
There is no message in the bible that Jesus is not Lord over us in our treatment of government, criminals, or wrongdoers. We are to serve Him in all things, and in all things to keep love in our hearts.
I admonish you to publicly state that your point of view is only your own, and deny that the Lord Jesus shares your cruel and bestial desire for torture.
You have made me sick.
To the others in the thread, please forgive Bill, and I for our unseemly anger and hatred. We are the imperfect children of a Loving God.
“When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations–the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you–and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.”
Exodus 21:20-21
“If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.”
Ezekial 9:3-10
Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.” As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. Then he said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!” So they went out and began killing throughout the city. While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, “Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?” He answered me, “The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, `The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.’ So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done.”
Judges 1:6
Adoni-Bezek fled, but they chased him and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and big toes.
And this piece of animal cruelty:
Joshua 11:6
The LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid of them, because by this time tomorrow I will hand all of them over to Israel, slain. You are to hamstring their horses and burn their chariots.”
Anyway that last part in its entirety should read:
Here is the key:
Sometimes its nice to fantasize, that is what I see Bill’s post as being. Nothing more. Unless I am mistaken Bill does not hold a policy making position in our Federal Government, and therefore isn’t in a position to institute any of his proposed responses.
First off let me stipulate that I am not a christian (I am not religious) so I feel under no constraint from what the Bible says people should or shouldn’t do. Good christians can turn the other cheek all day if they want to but I’d bet dollars to dimes these terrorists would gleefully keep punching you in the face till none of you were left. Me? I hit back. Maybe a good christian is the better person for turning the other cheek but that terrorist won’t be hitting me anymore either.
While I disagree with what I believe the OP’s definition of torture might be I think there are different forms of torture that might actually be acceptable to those of any faith.
Assume Osama bin Laden is truly the one ultimately guilty of these crimes and he is captured alive (and presumably convicted of these crimes in an appropriate court).
Build a large, bulletproof, plexiglass enclosure on the site of the former WTC and stick him in it. He will be fed daily and perhaps a sprinkler system can shower him. Beyond that he would be left on display for all to see and heckle for the rest of his life. I think this would be well worth the extra cost of imprisoning him in this fashion. You also avoid his death thus avoiding making him into a martyr and sidestepping the death penalty issue for those who are squeamish about it.
If some christians find this too close to torture think of it as a modern version of the old-style stocks that people would be locked in for awhile. Remember that that form of punishment was often practiced by very devout christians in the early days of our country so I would assume it passes biblical muster.
My other thought would be to see what kind of penalty the Koran (or Shariah?) would mete out for such a crime. If the murderer is Muslim they could hardly claim it was unfair to subject him to his own laws. Let’s see some of the punishments that Muslim countries consider appropriate for various crimes and I’ll leave it to you to extrapolate how they’d deal with a terrorist (I’d tell you if I knew but I don’t…I doubt it’d be pleasant though):
(NOTE: The following list was gleaned from Amnesty International’s web site in the area dealing with Afghanistan.)
[ul]
[li] Amputation for theft[/li]
[li] Crushing under a wall for sodomy[/li]
[li] Flogging for drinking alcohol or minor sexual offenses[/li]
[li] Stoning for sexual impropriety (an affair for example)[/li]
[li] Public beating for women walking unescorted (escorts must be a relative)[/li][/ul]
I feel strongly that they should not be tortured by our government. They should be arrested, tried, convicted and jailed. Not executed, mind you, nor jailed in a special prison, mind you, but put right in, for life, with the rest of our maximum secuity population.
And we tell the other inmates that whatever you do, however many times you do it, don’t let them die.
OK, Bill, I’m going to do you the favor of taking you somewhat seriously.
Of course it is a bad idea to torture the terrorists to death, but let me explain why. Torture is not just bad for the sufferer, it is bad for the torturer. Even if we feel that the tortured person deserves it, think about the psychological effects on the person who has to deliver it. If they have any human feeling at all, they will be sickened and hurt by it. And if they have no reaction, so much the worse, we now have a person capable of toture walking around the streets looking curiously at his fellow citizens.
If you want to really torture the terrorists, try a different tack. The terrorists attacked us because they hate and fear our civilization. Preserving, protecting, and improving our civilization is the worst thing you could possibly do to them.
That is one good idea. I wonder if our govt would do that. Think of the things that it would accomplish. First you will make bin laden a spectacle for the rest of his life. Plus that would be a heck of a deterent to other whaco terrorist. No shade or heat either bread and water for food only for the rest of his miserable life.
Sure, Bill. Someone fanatical enough to kill himself and thousands of innocent victims will doubtless be deterred by your masterplan. After all, we all know how rational a terrorist’s decision making is.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by tracer *
**Whack-a-Mole wrote:
No, you build the wall, then you put the person there, by the wall, then you knock down the wall on him. It’s always seemed like an overly labor intensive death penalty, but…
I think they should be put in jail and let WB try to convert them to Christianity by means of his rampant hypocrisy for the rest of their miserable lives.
One reason I like America is that we DON’T commit acts such as torture, even against those we might feel deserve it.
We don’t torture “savage animals” to death. We put them down as humanely as possible, because we are, at heart, humane. When I see film footage of the crashes and the aftermath, you can bet I feel like hurting someone. But when it comes right down to it, I think that people like this need to have as little of the limelight as possible. In the book “The Gift of Fear”, which is much more focused on more typical (although I hate to use the term “typical” regarding any murderer) killers, one concern of the author is the way we publicize every aspect of the chase, the capture, the trial, the aftermath, etc…These guys thrive on being martyrs and on the publicity they get. Imagine the shrines that would be built to them (the hijackers) if they were tortured to death, and the reverence and admiration they would be accorded among their own for whatever bravery they might show under such circumstances. Ick, is all I can say.
As the aforementioned author suggested (I’ll have to find the book for the exact quote and cite), let’s not show them among hordes of screaming people, or being rushed past dozens of reporters…let’s show them handcuffed to a post in a basement hallway with a single, bored-looking guard nearby. Let’s show them for the cowards they are.
~karol
Wouldn’t keeping Bin Laden in jail make his release a potential hostage demand? Would this not light the fuse to more violence?
Killing him would make his a martyr, so that’s not a solution either.
How about public defamation of character? People can do some amazing things with Photoshop nowadays. (I’ve got this nude picture of Britney Spears that I sweat looks…err, I digress) How about a few pictures of our buddy Osama, made to look as if taken by hidden camera, engaging in acts of sodomy, then a few million copies of the pictures dumped out over various spots in the middle east?
Those people might not yet be aware of what one can do with the right software.
A story I heard, when someone hijacked a Soviet plane the Soviets kidnapped one of the kidnappers leaders cut him into small pieces and delivered him to the kidnappers. They let the hostages go rather quickly.
Whack a Mole – not all martyrs are dead. Humiliatingly debased may be as effective as death for rallying troops.
And for you all having revenge fantasies – fine, I understand where you are coming from. But, please, find another outlet – we have no way of knowing you aren’t actually seriously deranged enough to enjoy torture!
