I'm Wesley Clark, 24, and have never had a girlfriend

Look. There are a million things to say here, and most everyone has said them; so here are the top two things I usually notice when meeting a man for the first time:

  1. Sincerity. Women are *extremely * observant. There is no facade that you can hide behind. It will either be extremely obvious, or discovered shortly. Besides, most women aren’t interested in such nonsense. We want you to be truly interested in who we are, while we want to be truly interested in who you are. Don’t be overly flamboyant or too soft spoken. Be clam. Be sincere.

  2. Grooming. First impressions *are * first impressions. I would guess the majority of women prefer a cleaner looking man. Now this does not necessarily mean suit, tie, the works. This means clean teeth, fresh breath, well-kept nails, fungus-free toes, soft clean hair, a pleasant smell, etc. Don’t pour on the cologne, and don’t wear something you’re not comfortable in; it will show.

Now, I’m sure you are a lovely guy, and that you will find a lovely girl. :slight_smile:

It’s really the people that haven’t been kissed that’s flabbergasted me! Makes me wonder where would I be if Song Wi hadn’t kissed me in 3rd grade…

Wesley, I have a few suggestions. You’re in college, right? Dating is never easier than when you’re in college, because you’re surrounded by a ton of people around your age, and people in their late teens/early 20s usually are not married yet and are interested in dating.

First, I noticed you like to drink. Get ye to a bar, fast! I have never met so many guys as I did in college at the bars. How many people attend your college? Are there many bars around? My college town had scores and scores of bars. Get your college paper, see if there are any bands playing at any local bars, and head down and check it out. It is always easy to strike up a conversation at a bar when a band is playing. “So have you seen these guys before?” “So what do you think of this band”? Once you start talking, say, “I’m about to go to the bar for another drink? Can I get you anything, my treat?”

Second, involve yourself in some campus activities. It could be anything from the College Democrats/Republicans to the Sierra Club, student government, debate club, anything! There are so many options!! I met some of my favorite college friends as a Young Democrat at my college. It was 1996, and the election was coming up, and we did a bunch of campainging and other activities, and it was always a BLAST! Please please look into joining some activities. Also, what is your major? You can usually join some sort of club/activiity dealing with your major.

Good luck!!

Wesley, one thing that sticks out to me in your posts is the number of pecentages and numbers you’ve used.

As a 22 year old female, that strikes me as odd. It seems more like you’re seeing dating from a detached, scientific point of view instead of a matter of you and your heart.

Know what my advice is?

Work on building a social network, like you’ve thought about. Seriously, get out and meet new men and women, without worrying about finding a potential mate. Oftentimes you’ll end up meeting someone that you never would have expected, simply because you weren’t actively looking for him or her.

That’s what I’ve spent most of my time doing. I didn’t have a boyfriend (except for one guy who was a really awesome friend but I knew it wouldn’t be right romantically). And y’know what happened? After just spending a couple years making friends, hanging out and figuring out who I am etc… I have a really awesome boyfriend that I just happened to meet one day. We became friends and after a few months, here we are, and I’m incredibly happy. :slight_smile:

So don’t be so analytical about things, and try to not worry and just enjoy being with people who are good friends.

HAHA. i wish i had a buck for everytime someone told me to ‘stop thinking and just do something’.

However i think my percentages are a good thing, they soften the blow of rejection. If someone went out feeling crushed everytime a woman rejected them they would never get anywhere. When you understand that logically 80-90% of women will reject you it doesn’t sting as bad.

I wasn’t joking when i said i wanted to buy you dinnet you know. :smiley:

If you fancy letting me buy you a coffee - i’d quite like that.

Well Clark, you remind me of myself. I’m 18, have only two friends, and can’t remember the last time I held a conversation with a girl my own age. I don’t know if I’ll ever break into “the social scene”.

Would you mind taking www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp test? I’m curious as to how you compare to me. It’s 70 questions, but the results are very interesting provided you read through the descriptions of your personality type.

Ahem.

Meant to say, “would you mind taking this test?”.

moderately expressed introvert

distinctively expressed intuitive personality

slightly expressed feeling personality

slightly expressed perceiving personality
Introverted Intuitive Feeling Perceiving

33 67 11 22

INFP for short

I think it’s more that when there’s something at stake-like I really LIKE someone, or there’s the expectation that it might LEAD somewhere, then I get nervous, because I want to impress, don’t want to screw it up, etc.

It’s kind of like you do your job really well, but when the big bosses come and watch you, you get nervous, because you’re under pressure.
Afraid of rejection? Ho yeah! Big time!

Not sure if you read the right description…

Here ya go:

“I remember the first albatross I ever saw. … At intervals, it arched forth its vast archangel wings, as if to embrace some holy ark. Wondrous flutterings and throbbings shook it. Though bodily unharmed, it uttered cries, as some king’s ghost in super natural distress. Through its inexpressible, strange eyes, methought I peeped to secrets not below the heavens. As Abraham before the angels, I bowed myself…” --(Herman Melville, Moby Dick)
INFPs never seem to lose their sense of wonder. One might say they see life through rose-colored glasses. It’s as though they live at the edge of a looking-glass world where mundane objects come to life, where flora and fauna take on near-human qualitie s.

INFP children often exhibit this in a ‘Calvin and Hobbes’ fashion, switching from reality to fantasy and back again. With few exceptions, it is the NF child who readily develops imaginary playmates (as with Anne of Green Gables’s “bookcase girlfriend”–h er own reflection) and whose stuffed animals come to life like the Velveteen Rabbit and the Skin Horse:

“…Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don’t matter at all, because once you are Real you can’t be ugly, except to people who don’t understand…” (the Skin Horse)
INFPs have the ability to see good in almost anyone or anything. Even for the most unlovable the INFP is wont to have pity.

Rest you, my enemy,
Slain without fault,
Life smacks but tastelessly
Lacking your salt!
Stuck in a bog whence naught
May catapult me,
Come from the grave, long-sought,
Come and insult me!."
–(Steven Vincent Benet, Elegy for an Enemy)
Their extreme depth of feeling is often hidden, even from themselves, until circumstances evoke an impassioned response:

“I say, Queequeg! Why don’t you speak? It’s I–Ishmael.” But all remained still as before. … Something must have happened. Apoplexy!
… And running up after me, she caught me as I was again trying to force open the door. … “Have to burst it open,” said I, and was running down the entry a little, for a good start, when the landlady caught me, again vowing I should not break down her premises; but I tore from her, and with a sudden bodily rush dashed myself full against the mark."–(Melville, Moby Dick)
Of course, not all of life is rosy, and INFPs are not exempt from the same disappointments and frustrations common to humanity. As INTPs tend to have a sense of failed competence, INFPs struggle with the issue of their own ethical perfection, e.g., perfo rmance of duty for the greater cause. An INFP friend describes the inner conflict as not good versus bad, but on a grand scale, Good vs. Evil. Luke Skywalker in Star Wars depicts this conflict in his struggle between the two sides of “The Force.” Although the dark side must be reckoned with, the INFP believes that good ultimately triumphs.

Some INFPs have a gift for taking technical information and putting it into layman’s terms. Brendan Kehoe’s Zen and the Art of the Internet is one example of this “de-jargoning” talent in action.
Functional Analysis
INFPs live primarily in a rich inner world of introverted Feeling. Being inward-turning, the natural attraction is away from world and toward essence and ideal. This introversion of dominant Feeling, receiving its data from extraverted intuition, must be the source of the quixotic nature of these usually gentle beings. Feeling is caught in the approach- avoidance bind between concern both for people and for All Creatures Great and Small, and a psycho-magnetic repulsion from the same. The “object,” be it homo sapiens or a mere representation of an organism, is valued only to the degree that the object contains some measure of the inner Essence or greater Good. Doing a good deed, for example, may provide intrinsic satisfaction which is only secondary to the greater good of striking a blow against Man’s Inhumanity to Mankind.

Extraverted intuition faces outward, greeting the world on behalf of Feeling. What the observer usually sees is creativity with implied good will. Intuition spawns this type’s philosophical bent and strengthens pattern perception. It combines as auxiliary with introverted Feeling and gives rise to unusual skill in both character development and fluency with language–a sound basis for the development of literary facility. If INTPs aspire to word mechanics, INFPs would be verbal artists.

Sensing is introverted and often invisible. This stealth function in the third position gives INFPs a natural inclination toward absent- mindedness and other-worldliness, however, Feeling’s strong people awareness provides a balancing, mitigating effect. This introverted Sensing is somewhat categorical, a subdued version of SJ sensing. In the third position, however, it is easily overridden by the stronger functions.

The INFP may turn to inferior extraverted Thinking for help in focusing on externals and for closure. INFPs can even masquerade in their ESTJ business suit, but not without expending considerable energy. The inferior, problematic nature of Extraverted Thinking is its lack of context and proportion. Single impersonal facts may loom large or attain higher priority than more salient principles which are all but overlooked.

Famous INFPs:

Homer
Virgil
Mary, mother of Jesus
St. John, the beloved disciple
St. Luke; physician, disciple, author
William Shakespeare, bard of Avon
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (Evangeline)
A. A. Milne (Winnie the Pooh)
Laura Ingalls Wilder (Little House on the Prairie)
Helen Keller, deaf and blind author
Carl Rogers, reflective psychologist, counselor
Fred Rogers (Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood)
Dick Clark (American Bandstand)
Donna Reed, actor (It’s a Wonderful Life)
Jacqueline Kennedy Onasis
Neil Diamond, vocalist
Tom Brokaw, news anchor
James Herriot (All Creatures Great and Small)
Annie Dillard (Pilgrim at Tinker Creek)
James Taylor, vocalist
Julia Roberts, actor (Conspiracy Theory, Pretty Woman) Scott Bakula (Quantum Leap)
Terri Gross (PBS’s “Fresh Air”)
Amy Tan (author of The Joy-Luck Club, The Kitchen God’s Wife)
John F. Kennedy, Jr.
Lisa Kudrow (“Phoebe” of Friends)
Fred Savage (“The Wonder Years”)

Fictional INFPs:
Anne (Anne of Green Gables))
Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)
Deanna Troi (Star Trek - The Next Generation)
Wesley Crusher (Star Trek - The Next Generation)
Doctor Julian Bashir (Star Trek: Deep Space 9)
Bastian (The Neverending Story)
E.T.: the ExtraTerrestrial
Doug Funny, Doug cartoons
Tommy, Rug Rats cartoons
Rocko, Rocko’s Modern Life cartoons
I’m an INTJ, so we don’t have as much in common as I had thought. Eh. Anyways, sorry for the hijack.

By msmith537: “You talk to girls with the intent of setting up a date and hooking up, not being friends or pen pals or some such shit.”
In case anybody missed that the first time, it’s worth repeating.

This thread is very sad. I had a physical relationship with the first girlfriend I ever had. We were both 12 at the time. (Hey! Don’t look so aghast, we WERE goin’ on 13!) There have been other girls, then women, and many other happy times for me since then.

So many people have posted in this thread that they are in their 20’s or older and never had a date or a real relationship. There’s a whole world out there waiting for you, and it’s not that tough to get started. There are many others like yourselves that would like to be doing something with somebody this coming Saturday night. Go find them. Just follow some of the excellent advice that’s been posted here. It’s not that hard, and you’ll be glad you did!

Hint: It is much easier to find a person that’s interested in you at a bar, church or ballgame than it is to find them while you are sitting at home playing on your computer. :wink:

My most excellent wife is currently doing some of her handicraft work in the next room. If I didn’t have her, I’d be out lookin’ right now, instead of home posting on this message board.

Good luck!

Thank you for supporting my point.

True…but with practice, you will learn to recognize who the 10-20% are who are attracted to you more quickly and be more focused in your search. I was pretty shy about dating girls in high school and typically had to be beaten over the head to realize when a girl liked me. By college I got progressively better at meeting and hooking up with girls. Ideally you want to minimize conversation so as to not become boring or fall into the “friend” zone. You want to make enough of a connection to express interest, not desparation or “stalking”.

Meeting girls should be relaxed. You don’t psych yourself up for 2 weeks to make your move on your dream girl. You just casually walk up and say “hey”. Forget all that John Hughs movie crap. Be money like Vince Vaughn from Swingers or Stifler from American Pie. Don’t be a Mikey or a Jim.

It most certainly does not. lee and I have been together for almost four years now, which I think constitutes a “long term relationship”.

Yes, but I don’t think you should be someone you aren’t. Its really of just taking your true personality and amplifying it by being confident. Its not really changing it. Confidence is something that is hard to build. You have to build confidence from experience, and experience is hard to get without confidence. But you really learn how to tell when girls like you. Every girl is different, but there are ways. Obviously learn the serious turn-offs like girls obviously being unconfortable in your presence. Of course there are things you can do to change a girl’s mind about her opinion of you, but you have to learn how to read body-language really well.

Make a habit of watching others flirt and see exactly what kind of behavior leads to what. This is very important, because it lets you see the actions of others from an unbiased perspective. This is the most crucial point, because it is true that only 10 percent will actually like you. You just have to figure out a way to narrow that down a little.

Also on dating. Dating isn’t really that great, and DON’T go out to eat an expensive meal. There are just WAY too many social expectations with the dinner date and the chances to actually get in a kiss are simply way to programmed. I can’t stand it. We aren’t living in the 50’s so its much better to do something that costs less and is much more fun anyway. I really can’t stress enough how bad it is to go out on a dinner date. You’re sitting there staring at each other thinking about all kinds of strange stuff.

Here are some good ideas to have in mind for getting to know chicks better. Forget about dating, because that is just an archaic way of doing it. That’s what you are doing. Just get to know them and present yourself in various situations where you can have even more intimacy than in a date and if during this time when you are with these girls if you start to get heavy signals that they like you then you can go on to first base, at which point you’ll probably not have so much trouble figuring it out anymore. :wink: Honestly, talking with a chick in a bar that you know from a class for an hour can do more good than going on a two hour dinner date where you have these weird expectations. That’s probably what happened with that other girl.

Firstly, cooking supper with friends. Inviting people over to your house is a good thing and cooking for them is cool too. Don’t cook by yourself though, but make it a group thing. Also make sure that its not just you and the girl, because she’ll never come. Ideally have her bring some of her friends and maybe a couple of yours too.

Secondly, I have already mentioned the park. Its not a bad thing either, and the sunshine puts people in a good mood.

Third, going out together. Pick your favorite place to go or ask her what her friends are doing that night and drag your friends there.

Maybe you can see where I am going with this, right? These are just some of my favorites, and I am sure you can think of some that would apply in your situation too. Asking a girl out is a very bad thing to do, and I have actually never asked any of my girlfriends out on a date. They sort of just happened. If you ask a girl on a date in order to get to know you better, she already knows where the relationship is headed. You are already letting her know subconsciously that you like her and then the whole date is framed around this. But if you just want to hang out with her in certain situations, then you get to do this evaluation anyway, but without all the stress.

I can certainly see now why you are so frustrated! It seems to me your approach to dating is as follows: See a girl you like. Get to know her. Ask her out. Its much better to have the whole thing as informal as possible. Its important that you see the girl in other settings than the one which you met, but it also can’t have the theme of you trying each other out. Also you judge about relationships based on what you see of your friends, but you also have to realize that a lot of the best parts of a relationship take place in private. Not just sex, but other things that you don’t expose in front of other people. If realtionships were as bad as you make them out to be, not so many people would be in them. I don’t get into them for any kind of social pressure, rather because I want to get to know someone.

But just stay away from the traditional “dating” thing because there is so much social programming that goes along with that.

Yes, but you are not a writer. The divorce rate for writers is quite high IIRC.

Wesly Clark, Pray tell what condition Eve has that precludes a long term relationship? Excessive class? Perhaps her wit. Wit at the breakfast table has cause divorces.

I’ve sent you an email, garius. :slight_smile: :eek:

ugh, i said earlier in this thread that i didn’t think it was fair, it was my understanding this was the view she took on herself. I was merely parroting what i thought she thought about herself.

About 3 - 4 girlfriends lasting about 3 - 4 months each until I was 27. Then met the woman who became my wife and been married ever since. Up to meeting her, though, I definitely put myself in the Non-Dating No Experience category.

Lots of the advice given by folks so far is really good. I guess I would add that, based on my experience after getting married, more contact with women is better than less - I know, glaringly, blindingly obvious, but true. By “more time” I mean - go where women are - churches, clubs/groups, shopping ferchrissake - and then go on a bunch of dates, with whichever women you can. Why?

  1. So you can practice asking women out - it is hard, rejection is awful, but if you don’t ask women out, nothing happens (unless one asks you out, which is rare).

  2. So you can practice HAVING FUN on dates - figuring out what is fun on a date takes time and varies a lot depending on the folks involved.

  3. So you can treat dates as…well, dates, and not the uniquely rare all-important I-better-not-fuck-this-up Life Event that folks like us tend to regard them as. The more dates you go on, the more you will recognize that there are always more dates. You will ease up on the pressure you put on any one date and be more yourself.

In short, practice makes perfect. I was just starting to get the hang of this when I was 27 - for the first time in my life, I just went out on a ton of dates and knew there could always be more. I lightened up, had fun on my terms (no disrepect to the women I was dating; I mean to say that I was myself and didn’t try to be someone I’m not) and it went great. And it led to my meeting my wife.

So - make sure you are reasonably well groomed (ask a woman friend if you are not sure), get away from your computer and set a goal of getting out on some dates…

Fair enough, but my advice for you is that although people may say things about themselves, it can be dangerous for others to say the very same thing, especially in public.

The classic example:
Wife: Oh, God! I am so fat since I had our dear daughter.
Husband: Yeah you did put on the pounds, but it was worth it and besides, on you it looks ok.
Wife: YOU THINK I AM FAT!
later at home
Wife: I can’t believe you said I was fat in front of the Joneses!

Also, while I can listen politely to Eve making such a declaration about herself, it is quite another to listen passively to another make the same declaration.