Gosh, people take things here personally.
I’ve taken the time to read through this entire thread. I’ve been on many message boards and bulletin boards before that. Despite observing people’s exchanges via computers for years, I STILL find it incredibly humorous that ANYONE attempts to pass judgment on the person of someone based upon the stream of 0’s and 1’s passing through copper. No matter how much you have “read” of someone online, you still know absolutely NOTHING about them as a person.
Based upon this thread, Joe_Cool is a liar and a bigot. I personally do not surround myself with liars and bigots in real life, nor would I. Bigots, liars, racists, and sexists have none of my respect and I judge everyone I know based upon the respect that I hold for them. If I have no respect for someone or something, then I simply won’t waste my time and effort on them.
With that said, I know Joe_Cool personally and better than anyone on this board with the exception of his fiancé, but I’ve known him longer 
He isn’t what this thread tries so very very desperately to paint him out to be. I’ve always known him to be truthful and trustworthy and have never witnessed him to be discriminatory to any /race/color/creed/ethnic background/political association/sexual preference/social standing/ (please forgive me if I have left out any possible ways that one human being can discriminate against another. It is not intentional in any way. I’m merely attempting to cover all bases.)
I’ll try to cover a few points from personal beliefs, experiences, and teachings:
I was raised Roman Catholic and went through all but 3 years of my schooling in Roman Catholic private schools. We were taught that homosexuality was wrong and a sin. We were taught that abortion is a sin. We were taught many things that are part of the Roman Catholic religion. Do I believe in all of these things.
No
I have no problem with homosexuality or abortion (abortion used mainly for an example). If gay/lesbian people want to get a legal marriage, that is fine by me. I don’t think personally that the Catholic Church is ever going to let gay/lesbian couples have a church wedding. I personally don’t believe in the piece of paper that you get at the courthouse or justice of the piece as a marriage. When I get married it will be at a church and that will be the marriage, not the legal piece of paper that I will obtain. Marriage to me is me pledging my love and loyalty to another person in front of God, nothing else.
I really don’t feel like going into people “remembering” something that someone has said in the past. If enough people tell you something about an “event” that has happened in the past, it becomes shocking how vivid a picture of that “event” the mind can produce. It doesn’t even matter whether it even happened before. If I lie to myself about something for long enough, it becomes the truth and no lie detector could ever say differently.
I don’t know any other way to close this other than to just simply remind everyone that this is the INTERNET
Nope, I don’t deny that at all, though I am a little bent out of shape at (among other things…I’ll just add this one to the list) the implication by some around here that I’m one of them. But in everyday life, it seems to me, anyway, much more likely to run into somebody who will belt you for being a jerk than for being gay. Maybe I just hang out in the wrong parts of town or something.
My opinion? I wouldn’t describe people like that quite as kindly as you did. God doesn’t hate anybody, and that kind of garbage is at least as bad as any of the crap on this thread that had me so worked up. Worse, actually, since it’s horribly misrepresenting God to people he loves.
Joe_Cool, first of all, apology accepted. As I said, I was very badly thrown by the idea of not having a church home last week, and I was concerned my faith was wavering, so I was particularly sensitive to anything which looked like it might drive my wandering feet still further away.
Second, while I admit I don’t read everything you post, I wanted to thank you for coming out here and saying “God doesn’t hate anybody,” and the rest of your last paragraph. I think sometimes you and I are kicking against the same thing – God being misrepresented.
You sound lucky to me. I get the impression you’re secure in your faith, and don’t know what it’s like to feel unwelcome or unwanted. You’re also in love with a woman I assume you think is wonderful (I tend to be a bit of a romantic). Me, I’m still getting used to the idea that I won’t be unwelcome and unwanted, and the one time I’ve been in love, he walked out of my life without telling me when or why.
Someone once said “A priest’s job is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.” Yes, Christians get complacent. One reason I walked out of a church retreat a week ago is because I was expecting conversations about faith and instead I got conversations about home remodeling and high school heart-throbs!
The thing is, I don’t have enough in common with these people to afflict them, although my leaving might have some small effect. Instead, in real life as well as on this Board, I seem to find myself among the afflicted. People who feel rejected by the nice, mainstream Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, which prevails here. These people know full well the Christian God judges and punishes. They expect Him to judge them the way people have judged them – harshly and mercilessly. If my words seem soft sometimes, it’s because I’m used to dealing with badly bruised people. Probe a little deeper, however, and you will hit Rock (especially in my head!;)).
Again, I’ve got no idea what difference this will make, but I did want to accept your apology and thank you for your last paragraph.
CJ
A few final notes from Ace:
Joe_Cool: You truly amaze me; In the face of this witch-hunt, with bigots spewing lies, making unfounded accusations, and comparing you and your fiancee to Hitler, you not only debunked the original post, you showed a sense of calm humour, and when provoked you brought a brilliant anger; I salute you, sir; would that I could some day emulate that measured response.
You squicky felcher, you rock. 
And I notice those that seconded the accusations you didn’t rush to apologize.
Hmm.
Then I cannot believe that you have actually been in that many online interactions at all, despite your claims to the contrary. Perhaps you have not been in that many persistant online interactions.
People that are assholes here are almost certainly assholes IRL. People that are hateful, sneering, dangerous little stalker freaks are almost certainly that way IRL, regardless of how they disguise it IRL. And people that are basically good people are most likely good people IRL.
This is not just “0’s and 1’s” - they are words, thoughts, hopes, fears, beliefs, loves, hates, dreams, and despairs, all recorded. The medium is irrelevant. Just as we can discover what sort of person Thomas Aquinas was from his writings, or Marcus Aurelius from his collected thoughts, so, in time, can you tell the same about a person who writes enough online.
Don’t get caught up in the medium.
If not, why should we even listen to your spirited endorsement of Joe_Cool, since it’s all just “0’s and 1’s” anyways?
This is true. It’s especially bad when what is ‘remembered’ is clearly enough to be considered ‘malicious defamation’.
So? The Net is Life.
My words are what I am. They are moreso me than what you would know about me IRL. I can be honest on subjects here, can speak much more freely, and can debate and discuss things that would have most people IRL moonwalking away from me in horror.
My words, for better or for worse, are what I am. Once again, do not get caught up in the medium.
I find it interesting that people can claim to know someone without a full physical and psycological history, and go on such imprecise clues as facial expressions, tone of voice, etc.
If someone acts like a jerk online, then they are a jerk. If someone stops acting like a jerk online and doesn’t do it again, they aren’t a jerk.
I think you guys are giving Joe exactly what he wants. Ever heard the term “internet troll”? Oh well, at least it’s keeping him from taking his insecurities out on oh, say, random people at gas stations.
And then you look at the Gaybashing thread in MPSIMS, and what do you see:
A) People being physically harmed for being gay, or having been in a gay bar, or merely being perceived as gay;
B) People being beaten up for being jerks.
Quite frankly, unless one defining characteristic of “jerk” is “being gay”, I don’t see how B is borne out of that thread. OTOH, I see plenty of A in there. And just FWIW, when I got bashed I was tutoring. Of my own free will. For free. I was there instead of being with school friends or going home to relax or … much of anything else. And as a reward I got pelted with rocks and sticks (and narrowly missed being hit in the head with a basketball).
Because they thought I was gay.
That is a horrible thing to say!!! Joe might be an equivocator with some damned annoying ideas, but he is NOT a troll, and to associate him with the DC sniper, who has those of us who live here scared to pump our gas or walk outside, is shameful!
Joe might piss me off royally, but he is posting in good faith, and he even apologized for his attacks on several posters. Whatever our differences, accusing him of being the kind of twisted fuck who is picking off people here, is WRONG!! Jiminy, if I get pissed at him for making casual rape metaphors, do you think I’m going to let that vicious attack on Joe_Cool slide?
Joe, I am horribly sorry that anyone said that to you.
I rest my case.
What the fuck are you talking about there Lola?
That was really, really obnoxious.
Humm - make that Lala would ya? Cheers.
Cheers back at ya, Olice.
I think gobear gave Lala exactly what she wanted.
I think Kal is the only one who got it.
::resists urge to post “DNFTT”::
There’s a name for that literary device, but I’ve forgotten it … anyone remember?
You’re getting cause and effect reversed buddy. First of all, gobear and Mr. Visible are not assholes, they are standing up for themselves.
More importantly, the reason you call them assholes is that they stand up to the hate you spew. Don’t you think that people who have experienced the real world consequences of a bad idea are a lot more likely to stand up to it? Do you honestly not see how horribly wrong your statement was?
And to the rest of the posters on this board, what the fuck is wrong with you people letting comments like this stand? If someone posted to a rape survivor on this board that they were “asking for it” they would be hounded out of here. It certainly seems to me that attacks on people like me are given a lot more leeway, and it makes me fuckin’ sick.
If I hate China, am I racist against the Chinese?
I don’t think so.
There is no reason for you to believe me. You don’t know me, nor will you ever truly know me through this medium. I’ll give a bit more background and insight into myself. I do this only because Joe_Cool is a real life friend and I find it funny how different the portrait of him painted in this thread looks as compared to his real life persona.
I’ve actually met a great deal of people from the internet in real life. Many of them I’ve made my friends, and others I have had relationships with. On top of that, I’ve hung out with an even larger chunk of persons on several occassions and in several settings. People are not always who they are online. On the contrary, they are often very different from who they are online. That admittedly blanket statement based only on the maybe 150 or so people that I’ve met online, applies to both those who were good natured online and those who were not. I’ve sadly been involved in a handful of romantic and physical relationships with people I’ve come to know because of the computer. It’s not that I lack the social graces to pursue a woman in real life nor was I online looking to meet someone, but something just seemed to “click” with those persons. Cautiously and reluctantly I allowed myself to be pulled into a real life relationship. On the times in question, the seemingly “ideal” mate turned to be a quite different person than who I knew online. A few of the times they were just very different than there online person. On on occassion, she turned out to be a very evil and sadistic person who broke my heart badly. I hate to throw my beliefs into a discussion, but they fueled my handling of that situation. I held no bitter feelings towards that one person in particular and simply prayed that she will one day understand the person she had become in her life and find a way to repent.
As for the other people that I have entered into serious friendships with that found their roots on the internet, they are not the person from the computer. Some were trolls, some just looking to debate every point no matter how true and factual it may have been, and others unable to wish ill will to anyone. These however aren’t the people that I know in real life. For some of them, message boards and irc is just a medium to kill boredom. Maybe one’s online persona represents a fantasy of who they can be on the computer that they aren’t in real life.
Please don’t misunderstand my point though. I HAVE met and known plenty of people from the internet who are very much like their online persona. In the end, to me, I haven’t met or known someone until I’ve spent enough real life time to know them.
As a published poet and writer of other things, I truly appreciate the power of the written word, but I also understand how easy it is for the meaning of the word in my mind to be something so different from its intent in the mind of someone else. Our dreams, our hopes, our loves, hates, and fears are not always the person we are. How many people have you met that just live their life in the moment? Can you honestly say you are following all of your dreams and working towards them? I have many loves, a few that I can achieve. Life to many is compromise. I love Mercedes Benz’s (never quite figured out the plural for Benz. No matter what I write, it sounds silly to me.), and would love to and dream of being incredibly rich. I am going into the field of computer animation and must be realistic and make a compromise. I know the jobs that I get will not pay me enough to satisfy the material objects that I love. I make the compromise of trying to find a job that I will enjoy doing and will in return pay me enough to comfortably support a family on. In the case of 3D Arts, lead animators and directions to make a very nice amount of money, but they unfortunately are no longer animators/modelers/texture artists/riggers/compositors by that point. They are in a role of management and no longer do what they entered the field doing. My dream was to become a lawyer, but nearly a quarter of a million dollars worth of tution by choosing the Ivy Leage route wasn’t feasible to me. I am a 3D Artist, because I will enjoy going to work every day.
With that said, in the case of the word rape being thrown about in this thread. I personally don’t think I would have used it in that context around people who may have a different definition of it. Words are often a memory moreso than just letters with a definition linked to them. I highly doubt that Joe_Cool meant to offend those who have been or know people who have been raped by using the word in a context other than what it stands for. Has anyone ever gone to see a broadway play or watched or live show where someone just totally missed or messed up their line and said “wow he/she just murdered that line.”?
I’m sure most people who read what I just wrote will take nothing from that line.
“wow he/she just murdered that line.”
My mother’s sister was murdered by her boyfriend. I take offense to that line. I understand it’s context in the statement and would never chastise someone based upon that usage.
The net is a life within itself. That life however isn’t real life.
If you are only able to speak of certain things online that are part of your real feelings, then by meeting you in real life I wouldn’t get to meet those feelings. If someone would moonwalk away from the things you wish to say in real life, then they aren’t knowing the same person from online. I may like who you are in real life, but hate your online persona based upon that. I really haven’t read enough of things you’ve posted here to make an online opinion of you. Based on you saying things online that you wouldn’t in real life for fear of people backing away from you, then you sort of are two different people. Your interactions with others may be the same, but what you feel is different.
My father got adicted heavily to an online Role Playing Game and snapped. He left my mother only to return a week later when he came to his senses. That online RPG is nothing but a message board with graphics and quests. That experience and what it put my mother and myself through only help to more strongly forge my opinions that the net isn’t real.